Resilience in the Face of Addiction: Samantha Cohen's Triumph

Party Wreckers Podcast

Speaker 1 0:00

If

you

don't

mind ,

I

will

begin

at

the

beginning .

Speaker 2 0:04

Life

too

short ,

man ,

you

don't

want

to

hold

no

grudge ,

man

you

thought ,

man

you're

gonna

let

little

bygones

be

bygone .

Man ,

I

couldn't

believe

that

son

of

a

bitch

had

the

balls

to

say

that .

Speaker 1 0:17

Welcome

to

the

Party

Wreckers

podcast ,

hosted

by

professional

interventionists

Matt

Brown

and

Sam

Davis .

This

is

a

podcast

for

families

or

individuals

with

loved

ones

who

are

struggling

with

addiction

or

alcoholism

and

are

reluctant

to

get

the

help

that

they

need .

We

hope

to

educate

and

entertain

you

while

removing

the

fear

from

the

conversation .

Stay

with

us

and

we'll

get

you

through

it .

Please

welcome

the

Party

Wreckers ,

matt

Brown

and

Sam

Davis .

Speaker 3 0:53

All

right .

After

a

couple

of

weeks

of

doing

a

few

interventions

and

completely

slacking

off ,

sam

and

I

are

back .

Sam ,

welcome ,

welcome .

It's

good

to

see

your

face

on

my

screen

again .

How

are

you ?

Speaker 2 1:03

I'm

good

man ,

you

know .

Lexi

has

reminded

me

several

times

that

she

heard ,

when

we

went

up

to

see

a

treatment

program

and

met

with

this

trauma

therapist ,

that

addicted

individuals

don't

really

have

a

concept

of

time ,

and

that

includes

those

of

us

in

recovery .

So

I

just

wanted

to

remind

you ,

sir ,

it's

been

longer

than

two

weeks ,

it's

been

probably

close

to

a

month

since

we

put

something

together .

Speaker 3 1:26

So

yeah ,

well ,

I'll

admit

to

having

lacking

a

little

bit

of

concept

of

time

on

that .

Absolutely ,

I

feel

better

when

I

tell

myself

it's

only

been

two

weeks .

Speaker 2 1:36

Yeah ,

yeah ,

I

think

it's

been

like

a

month .

Okay

put

a

podcast

together

and

that's

unfortunate .

Speaker 3 1:43

Yes ,

it

is .

Yes ,

it

is .

Well ,

it's

good

to

be

back

today .

I

think

we've

got

an

amazing

guest

today .

It's

been

a

long

time

coming

for

her

to

be

with

us .

Before

we

jump

into

this ,

though ,

I

want

to

make

sure

that

we

remind

everybody

about

our

upcoming

intervention

training

in

Virginia .

We

were

originally

going

to

be

doing

this

in

Maryland .

We

changed

venues

to

Virginia ,

just

outside

of

Richmond .

What's

the

name

of

the

town

that

we're

going

to

be

in ?

Sam

Chester ,

chester ,

chester ,

virginia ,

coming

up

at

the

end

of

this

month .

If

you're

curious

and

interested

about

registering

for

the

intervention

training

with

Sam

and

myself ,

please

visit

[redacted]com

and

you'll

find

a

link

on

there

to

register

for

the

intervention

training .

Speaker 2 2:20

Yeah ,

we'd

love

to

have

you

Love ,

to

have

you

be

a

part

of

it .

Speaker 3 2:23

Now

we've

got

another

intervention

training

coming

up

and

in

December

down

in

Texas

and

it's

going

to

be

at

the

Arbor

and

our

guest

today

is

the

admissions

director

for

the

Arbor ,

sam

Cohen .

It's

going

to

get

a

little

confusing ,

so

during

the

intervention

we'll

call

her

Samantha

and

of

course

Sam

will .

Well ,

he'll

be

Sam ,

sam ,

samantha .

How

you

doing ?

Speaker 4 2:44

I'm

doing

good .

I'm

excited

to

be

here .

Thank

you

for

asking

me

to

come .

Speaker 3 2:48

We're

glad

to

have

you

here .

So

let's

start

kind

of

at

the

beginning .

How

did

you ,

being

a

woman

in

recovery ,

how

did

where

did

your

story

start ?

How

did

it

kind

of

lead

you

to

the

path

that

you're

on

now ?

Start

wherever

you

want

in

the

timeline

there .

Speaker 4 3:07

Well ,

you

know ,

I've

been

asked

to

tell

my

story

many

times

and

it's

interesting ,

as

the

years

go

on ,

how

your

perception

really

changes .

And

the

more

separation

I

get ,

I

think ,

the

more

clarity

that

I

get

around

what

my

active

addiction

did

look

like .

Because

I

got

sober

really

young .

I

was

one

of

those

that

went

to

treatment

multiple

times

and

the

family ,

my

family

was

absolutely

exhausted

and

they

were

tired

of

admissions

reps ,

they

were

tired

of

treatment

centers ,

they

were

tired

of

family

programs ,

they

were

tired

of

intervention ,

they

were

tired

of

all

of

it

and

they

really

didn't

think

and

I

didn't

think

that

I

could

actually

get

it

and

I

thought

that

anyone

that

had

any

significant

period

of

time

was

full

of

shit .

Speaker 3 3:57

Excuse

my

French ,

but

oh ,

you're

good ,

we

speak

French

here .

Speaker 4 4:00

Good ,

good ,

good .

I

thought

they

were

completely

full

of

it

and

you

know ,

I

was

pretty

hopeless

by

the

time .

I

actually

got

sober

and

stayed

sober ,

and

so

I

can

really

start

just

like

with

a

little

bit

of

information

about

my

family .

My

mom

is

one

of

us .

She's

an

addict

and

alcoholic .

My

brother's

one

of

us .

He's

an

addict

and

alcoholic .

Speaker 3 4:22

Where

did

you

grow

up ?

Speaker 4 4:24

I

actually

grew

up

in

San

Antonio ,

but

my

dad

is

a

300-pound

Jewish

man

from

the

Bronx

and

my

mom's

a

little

Christian

woman

from

Texas .

So

very ,

two

different ,

very

different

viewpoints

on

life

and

how

to

raise

children

and

how

to

interact

with

the

world .

But

I

grew

up

in

San

Antonio .

My

dad

is

a

professional

chef

and

he

got

a

job

in

San

Antonio

and

we

moved

down

here

and

I

had

two

brothers ,

an

older

brother

and

a

younger

brother ,

and

growing

up ,

addiction

and

alcoholism

was

not

abnormal

and

I

didn't

identify

it

as

addiction

and

alcoholism

at

all ,

I

just

identified

it .

Speaker 4 5:06

As

you

know ,

you

drink

every

day .

That's

what

we

do ,

you

know .

And

my

mom

passing

out

and

learning

how

to

drive

when

I'm

nine

years

old

eight

years

old ,

because

she

couldn't

or

whatever

was

not

abnormal .

Like

people

were

like

oh

my

God ,

I'm

so

sorry

you

were

raised

that

way

and

I'm

like

I

had

a

great

time ,

like

I

didn't

think

it

was

that

bad

until

it

got

that

bad ,

you

know .

And

I

had

a

fun

childhood ,

like

I

had

a

good

time .

My

mom

was

my

best

friend ,

you

know .

She

bought

me

everything

I

ever

wanted

and

we

had

fun .

And

the

first

time

I

ever

put

a

substance

in

my

body .

I

was

nine

years

old

and

it

was

with

my

brother ,

and

heroin

showed

up

for

me

in

the

form

of

marijuana

at

nine .

What

does

that

mean ?

Speaker 3 5:53

heroin

showed

up

in

the

form

of

marijuana .

Speaker 4 5:55

for

people

who

may

not

understand

that

statement ,

it

means

like

I

had

fun

for

a

period

of

time

and

my

downfall ,

my

big

downfall ,

which

I

believe

I

would

have

hit

that

downfall

anyway

was

when

I

started

using

heroin ,

when

I

started

using

opiates ,

and

it

went

from

fun

to

bad

real

quick .

But

I

was

able

to

hold

it

together .

When

I

was

using

marijuana ,

when

I

was

drinking

alcohol

or

when

I

was

using

cocaine ,

I

was

able

to

like

present

like

I

was

doing

okay .

So

that's

what

it

means

for

me .

Speaker 3 6:29

So

how

long

was

it

From

the

time

that

you

started

smoking

pot

until

the

time

you

tried

heroin

for

the

first

time ?

Speaker 4 6:35

I

actually

used .

I

used

IV

heroin

when

I

was

14

years

old .

It

was

the

first

time

I

ever

used

IV

heroin .

I

was

very

young

and

now

I'm

grateful

for

that .

I'm

very

grateful

that

I

started

very

young

Because

I

got

sober

really

young .

Speaker 2 6:49

Yeah ,

how

old

were

you

when

you

sobered

up ?

Speaker 4 6:51

I

was

20

years

old

when

I

got

sober

and

I

went

to

treatment

11

times

before

I

got

sober .

I

started

my

treatment

experience

at

16 .

My

mom

actually

had

an

intervention .

My

family

had

an

intervention

on

my

mom

when

I

was

15

and

I

remember

when

that

intervention

was

over

I

walked

downstairs

and

there's

the

interventionist

and

the

whole

family

with

all

these

letters

and

I

was

not

looped

into

this ,

of

course ,

because

I

was

not

a

healthy

individual .

And

when

the

intervention

was

successful ,

my

mom

hugged

me

and

she

said

you're

next .

And

I

thought

that

was

just

very

shocking ,

but

now

I

think

it's

funny

because

it

was

very

true .

Speaker 3 7:31

Well ,

when

you

walk

downstairs ,

was

there

any

thought

that

that

might

have

been

for

you

at

the

time ?

Speaker 4 7:36

Oh ,

a

hundred

percent .

I

was

like

oh

boy ,

here

we

go .

And

then

they

were

like

Jamie ,

we're

so

glad .

And

I

was

like

whoa ,

thank

God .

Speaker 2 7:43

Dodge

that

bullet .

Yeah

yeah ,

I

bet

you

were

like ,

yeah ,

man ,

that's

one

of

a

bitch

needs

intervention .

I'm

glad

y'all

are

here

he's .

Hey ,

he

was .

I

wasn't

doing

so

well .

Speaker 3 7:57

Yeah ,

yeah ,

mom's

pretty

bad

off .

I'm

glad

you

guys

are

here

to

help

her .

Speaker 4 8:02

Exactly ,

exactly .

It

was

interesting .

It

was

the

first

time

I

was

ever

introduced

to

recovery

because ,

like

I

said ,

like

Alcoholism

and

addiction

was

normal

for

me ,

like

it

wasn't .

I

didn't ,

I

didn't

identify

it

as

that

and

when

she

went

to

treatment

it

was

so

odd

because

I

was .

You

know ,

like

I

said ,

I

think

I

was

14

or

15 ,

my

little

brother

was

like

nine

and

my

older

brother

was

a

Like

19

or

something

like

that ,

and

it

was

around

Christmas

and

you

know ,

she

missed

all

the

holidays

which

no

one

cared

in

our

family ,

that

she

missed

all

the .

That's

a

big

thing

for

people

not

to

go

To

treatment .

I'm

gonna

miss

Christmas ,

I'm

gonna

miss

New

Year's .

Well ,

we're

all

glad

you're

gonna

miss

it

anyway ,

you

know ,

because

it

was

never .

She

wasn't

herself ,

you

know ,

and

when

she

came

back

it

was

like

they

talk

about

in

the ,

in

the

traditions ,

like

Attraction ,

not

promotion ,

and

that

was

the

first

time

I

ever

experienced

like

a

happy

version

of

my

mother .

So

it's

crazy .

Speaker 2 9:03

Yeah ,

now ,

when

you

were ,

when

she

was

being

intervened

on

and

she

went

off

the

treatment ,

you

were

Ivy

heroin

user

by

that

time ,

correct ?

And

so

when

you

would

go

out

and

do

what

you

did

while

she

was

off

getting

well ,

was

there

a

part

of

you

that ,

it's

sort

of

like ,

ruined

your

buzz ?

Like

you

had

this

looming

feeling

that

Like

you're

headed

down

that

road .

Speaker 4 9:27

You

know ,

that's

an

interesting

question

because

my

brother ,

my

older

brother ,

is

one

of

those

that ,

like

he ,

became

an

alcoholic ,

an

addict

over

time .

Speaker 4 9:33

I

was

one

of

those

that

was

born

that

way

and

so

we

went

to .

I

didn't

really

have

a

thought

in

my

mind

when

she

first

went ,

and

when

she

first

went

I

was

like ,

okay ,

she's

gonna

go ,

I'm

staying

here ,

because

I

didn't

understand ,

like ,

what

getting

well

was

or

I

thought

like

maybe

she's

gonna

go

learn

how

to

drink

successfully

or

something .

But

when

I

went

to

family

program

and

we

left

family

program ,

I

remember

my

brother

and

I

having

two

very

different

perspectives .

My

brother

was

like

I

need

to

quit

using

drugs

and

I

was

like

what ?

Like

that's

what

you

got

out

of

that ?

Like

I

was

baffled

by

the

idea

that

he

even

wanted

to

quit ,

and

so

If

I

look

back

on

my

story ,

that

was

a

very

identifying

like

factor

of

like

him

and

I

were

very

different

at

that

point .

So

I

didn't ,

I

didn't

cross

my

mind

to

stop

or

slow

down

or

quit

or

anything

like

that

when

she

went .

Speaker 3 10:29

Well ,

let's ,

let's

back

up ,

and

if

I'm

crossing

the

line

by

asking

this

question ,

samantha ,

let

me

know .

But

yeah ,

like

most

nine-year-old

girls ,

don't

start

drinking

and

smoking

weed

Because

life's

going

well ,

yeah

you

know ,

you

had

you

had

alluded

to

the

fact

that

you

had

learned

how

to

drive

at

nine ,

because

your

mom

was

unable

to ,

and

so

you'd

have

to

drive

the

car ,

like

yeah

what

was

it

about

At

nine

years

old ,

as

you

started

to ,

I

would

assume ,

to

drink

and

use

on

a

regular

basis ?

Speaker 3 10:57

like ,

what

was

it

about

that ?

That ,

as

a

nine-year-old

little

girl

who

was

probably

what ?

Third ,

fourth

grade ?

Yeah ,

like

what ,

what

was

it

about

that

that

made

your

life ?

More

tolerable

than

then

what

it

was

as

a

normal ,

you

know ,

or

what

would

have

been

a

normal

nine-year-old ,

that's

a

yeah .

So

I

remember

the ,

like

my

brother's ,

five

years

older

than

me .

Speaker 4 11:17

So

he

always

had

like ,

we

always

had

parties ,

we

had

people

over

the

house

like ,

because

my ,

my

mom

didn't

care

and

my

dad

was

at

work ,

and

so

my

whole

life ,

like ,

we

were

the

house

to

be ,

we

were

the

party

house ,

we

were

the

and

it's

my

brother

was ,

you

know ,

that

person

in

middle

school

and

high

school

or

everyone ,

wanted

to

be

friends

with

them

because

you

can

go

to

the

house

and

you

can

drink

and

you

can

smoke

and

you

can

do

whatever

you

want .

You're

gonna

get

away

with

it .

And

I

remember

the

first

time

I

ever

got

introduced

to

to

marijuana ,

my

brother

was

poking

holes

in

a

diet

Dr

Pepper

can

and

I

was

like

what

are

you

doing ?

He

was

like

nothing ,

don't

pay

attention

to

what

I'm

doing .

I

was

like

no ,

what

are

you

doing ?

Speaker 4 11:56

I

was

so

curious

and

he

was

like

I'm

just

smoking

weed .

It's

a

plant

comes

from

the

earth .

And

there

was

no

fear ,

like

I

was

not .

I

was

not

afraid .

I

was

like

let

me

try

it ,

you

know .

And

it

was

that

quick

because

I

wanted

to

fit

in ,

I

wanted

to

be

cool ,

I

wanted

to

Be

friends

with

my

brother's

friends ,

I

wanted

to

be

liked

and

I

just

wanted

to

be

the

cool

kid ,

and

so

that

was

the

first

time

I

ever

used

substances ,

and

it

was

also

the

beginning

of

a

lot

of

abuse

to

a

lot

of

abuse ,

and

that

was

a

scary ,

scary

part

of

my

life .

Speaker 3 12:37

But

yeah ,

so

you

went

to

treatment

at

16 ,

I

was

like

I'm

not

gonna

do

this

again .

So

you

went

to

treatment

at

16

and

then

went

to

treatment

many

times

before

you

were

20 .

Overcoming Boundaries and Finding Recovery

Speaker 3 12:50

Why

do

you

think

that

those

early

treatment

experiences

didn't

work

for

you ?

Speaker 4 12:56

The

honest

truth

is

that

my

family

had

zero

boundaries .

Zero

boundaries ,

I

could

always

work .

Speaker 3 13:03

My

mom

Could

always

work

my

mom

even

though

she

was

in

recovery

at

this

point .

Speaker 4 13:08

She

was

in

recovery

for

about

a

year

and

a

half

and

then

she

relapsed .

So

my

mom ,

you

know

she

was

not ,

and

even

when

she

was

in

recovery ,

I

mean

she

felt

so

guilty

about

everything

that

she

gave

me

everything

that

I

wanted ,

you

know ,

whenever

I

asked ,

and

her

guilt

kept

me

high

for

a

long

time .

But

I

don't

think

it

worked .

A

because

I

was .

I

wasn't

truly

like

ready

in

the

sense

of

like .

I

wasn't

mature

enough

to

even

make

a

healthy

decision

and

be .

My

family

had

no

boundaries ,

so

I

got

to

do

whatever

I

want

and

I

really

ran

that

relationship .

Speaker 3 13:52

And

so ,

what

was

different

about

the

last

treatment

experience

that

you

had ?

What

was

different

about

you ?

What

was

different

about

the

treatment

program

or

the

experience

that

you

had ?

Why

did

this

one

work ?

Speaker 4 14:03

So

I

went

through

the

arbor

Eight

years

ago ,

almost

nine

years

ago ,

and

that

was

the

first

place

that

I

ever

truly

had

an

experience

at

they .

They

walked

me

through

all

12

steps .

They

held

me

accountable .

I

couldn't

sleep

all

day .

I

did

like

I

did

therapy .

Speaker 4 14:24

Yes ,

I

did

therapy ,

but

really

you

can't

really

get

down

to

Really

intense

trauma

and

her

child

work

in

90

days .

That

takes

years .

You

can

scratch

the

surface ,

you

can

really

begin

to

understand

that ,

but

I

don't

think

I

really

did

any ,

true ,

like

identifying

my

behaviors

and

how

I

participate

in

relationships ,

and

so

I

was

like

three

or

four

years

sober ,

but

they

held

me

accountable

and

I

couldn't

get

away

with

all

the

crap

that

I'd

normally

got

away

with

in

treatment

centers .

And

I

got

through

all

12

steps

and

like

I

had

an

experience .

And

then

I

went

to

extended

care

and

I

went

to

sober

living

and

I

did

the

whole

shebang

and

I

remember

after

extended

care

I

relapsed

because

I

called

my

family

and

I

was

like

I'm

not

doing

the

arbor

sober

living .

They're

too

strict ,

they're

too

much ,

I

can't

do

this

anymore ,

they're

too

expensive ,

you

know ,

and

they

co-signed

it

and

let

me

go

to

a

Flop

house

sober

living ,

and

I

was

high

within

Three

weeks .

Speaker 2 15:27

Yeah ,

too

expensive ,

of

course ,

you

know

I

mean ,

since

you

had

so

much

financial

input

into

the

situation ,

right

Like

heroin's

cheap

three

minutes

ago

she

was

saying

I

could

ask

for

anything

and

I'd

get

it .

Yeah ,

the

old

man

y'all .

I

just

you

know

I

don't

need .

This

is

too

expensive .

I

don't

want

to

put

this

financial

burden

on

y'all

by

any

means .

Speaker 3 15:47

How

many

times

have

we

heard

that ?

Speaker 4 15:51

We've

all

used

it .

My

favorite

was

like

my

last

treatment

center ,

my

last

experience .

I

told

my

grandma

you

can't

pay

for

this

anymore .

I'm

not

gonna

let

you

pay

for

this .

And

she

said ,

sam ,

when

I

show

up

to

your

funeral ,

you

don't

get

to

tell

me

how

much

money

I

spent

to

save

your

life .

And

I

was

like ,

wow ,

okay ,

grandma .

Speaker 3 16:09

So

let

me

let

me

back

up

just

a

second ,

sam ,

because

I

think

the

three

of

us

know

you

working

in

admissions

and

Sam

and

I

doing

the

Intervention

work

that

we

do

that

it

takes

a

crisis

usually

for

the

family

to

pick

up

the

phone

and

say ,

okay ,

it's ,

we

got

to

do

something ,

even

though

your

family

had

done

it

ten

times

previous .

What

was

that

crisis

for

you ?

When ,

when

your

family

finally

said

on

the

11th

time ,

like ,

okay ,

we

got

to

do

something

different

this

time .

Speaker 4 16:35

So

I

was

done

once

again .

I

called

my

family .

I

asked

for

help

again

and

they

said

no ,

they

were

like

Sam ,

we

told

you

this

was

the

last

time

we

were

gonna

do

this

and

we

meant

it

and

I

love

you

and

figure

it

out .

And

I

was

homeless

on

the

streets

of

California

and

my

mom

had

never

let

me

be

homeless

before .

She

never

let

me

be

homeless .

She

always

sent

me

money .

I'm

hungry .

She

said

that's

cool ,

there's

food

at

the

treatment

center .

If

you

wanna

go

there ,

you

can

call

me

and

you

can

eat

there .

And

they

stuck

to

their

boundaries .

And

I

had

to

call

my

grandma

and

beg

for

help .

Speaker 4 17:15

And

I

remember

I

remember

not

knowing

if

this

was

gonna

work ,

not

believing

if

it

was

gonna

work ,

but

I

laid

on

that

detox

floor

sick

and

I

asked

God

to

kill

me

or

help

me ,

but

pick

one .

And

I

made

a

decision

that

I

was

gonna

take

suggestions ,

regardless

of

how

I

felt

about

it .

And

that

was

the

decision

and

that

was

my

third

step ,

decision

that

I

made .

I

truly

believe

that

was

my

third

step .

I

did

one ,

two

and

three

on

that

detox

floor

and

when

I

started

this

treatment

experience

again ,

instead

of

being

like

the

asshole ,

stubborn

little

shit

that

no

clinician

ever

wanted

to

work

with ,

because

that's

who

I

was .

Speaker 4 17:53

I

fought

the

girl

in

a

great

bull's

group .

I

slept

with

the

dude

behind

the

cafeteria .

I

was

that

client .

I

was

the

worst

and

I

made

a

decision

to

take

the

suggestions .

And

so

when

they

said ,

sam ,

we

want

you

to

be

in

sober

living

for

a

year ,

I

said

fuck

you

okay ,

sam ,

when

this

happens ,

you

need

to

call

your

sponsor .

And

I

said

fuck

you

okay .

And

that

was

my

mentality

for

a

long

time

and

even

to

this

day ,

when

I

get

in

that

spot

and

I

call

someone

and

they

give

me

a

suggestion ,

I

take

it ,

and

I

think

that

is

the

thing

that

has

continued

to

keep

me

sober ,

is

that ?

Speaker 2 18:29

And

it's

not

like

you're

clicking

your

heels

going

to

do

this

work

even

today ,

like

you're

speaking

of .

It's

not

like

you'll

get

some

direction

from

people

that

you've

given

spiritual

consent

to

hold

you

accountable

and

they

give

you

suggestions .

You're

like ,

oh

man ,

yeah ,

that

was

great ,

I

think

I

will

do

that .

It's

like ,

ah ,

fuck

man ,

I

don't

want

to

do

this ,

Like

it's

the

last

thing

I

want

to

do .

And

I

think

a

lot

of

newcomers

are

people

that

just

kind

of

veer

off

is

that

they

experience

that

too

and

they

don't

do

it .

And

they

seem

to

think

that

we

just

take

suggestions

with

bells

on

and

I

don't

I

can't

speak

for

anybody

else ,

but

I

don't ,

like

I

got

some

direction

from

my

sponsor

yesterday

and

I'm

like ,

man ,

I

don't

want

to

do

that ,

like

I'll

do

it ,

but

I

don't

really

freaking

want

to

do

that

Exactly .

Speaker 4 19:16

No .

Speaker 2 19:16

I

went

to

a

meeting

today .

I

went

to

a

meeting

today

at

11

o'clock

and

I

didn't .

It

wasn't

like

I

was

just

all

cheerful

behind

the

wheel

going

to

this

meeting .

I'm

grateful

that

the

meeting

existed ,

but

I

wasn't

all

full

of

glee

headed

into

the

meeting

today .

You

know

what

I

mean .

Speaker 4 19:30

For

sure ,

and

I

think

that's

the

big

delusion

around

getting

into

recovery ,

that

everything's

gonna

be

great

all

the

time ,

and

that's

just

not .

That's

not

my

experience .

My

experience

is

that

it's

way

better

than

it

ever

was

and

I

experienced

joy

and

happiness

and

contentment

and

I

can

show

up

for

a

job

and

I

can

pay

my

bills .

But

life

still

gets

tough ,

like

it's

life ,

you

know .

And

it

goes

back

to

my

first

step

where

it's

like

getting

high

is

never

the

answer .

It's

never

the

answer .

It

makes

everything

so

much

worse ,

you

know ,

and

I

think

we

overcomplicate

the

hell

out

of

this

program ,

you

know ,

and

we

put

some

really

cool

like

corks

and

whistles

on

it

and

we

make

a

bunch

of

shit

up

over

the

years ,

you

know .

And

then

we

have

a

very

fire

and

brimstone

mentality

and

I

get

brainwashed

into

thinking

if

I

don't

do

it

nightly ,

I'm

gonna

die ,

if

I

don't

meditate ,

I'm

gonna

die ,

and

like .

That's

not

my

experience ,

you

know

at

all ,

and

that

took

me

out

for

a

long

time ,

you

know .

Struggles and Lessons in Early Recovery

Speaker 2 20:35

But

as

it

says

that

it's

very

easy

for

us

to

rest

on

our

laurels

and

we

are

headed

for

trouble

if

we

do .

My

sponsor

emphasized

that

to

me .

He

said

it

doesn't

mean

you're

always ,

you're

wrestling

your

laurels

that

you're

gonna

go

out

and

use

immediately .

You're

headed

for

trouble .

And

that

shows

up

in

my

life ,

with

personal

relationships ,

selfishness ,

self-centeredness ,

sitting

around

like

a

palletude

bubblegum .

Woe

is

me ,

poor ,

poor ,

poor

me ,

and

stepping

on

the

toes

of

my

fellows ,

you

know ,

and

just

lose

joy .

Lose

joy

and

sit

in

an

area

of

greatness .

Speaker 3 21:16

You

both

alluded

to

this

and

I

think

it's

an

important

point

to

emphasize

I

certainly

have

this

as

part

of

my

experience

as

well

is

that

taking

the

right

action ,

regardless

of

the

attitude

that

I

have ,

is

way

more

important

than

having

a

good

attitude

without

the

action .

Speaker 4 21:32

100%

100% ,

because

I

don't

Go

ahead .

Speaker 3 21:38

No

Well ,

so

many

times

we

talk

to

families

and

it's

like ,

well ,

we

just

gotta

wait

for

them

to

get

willing ,

we

gotta

wait

for

them

to

want

this

for

themselves ,

and

the

reality

is

that

can

be

a

really

long

and

sometimes

fatal

wait .

Speaker 4 21:51

Yeah ,

oh ,

yeah .

Well ,

and

it's

interesting

too ,

because

even

when

they

do

want

it

right

Like

me ,

I

did

want

it

many

a

times

and

then

I

didn't .

You

know ,

my

action

showed

I

didn't

want

it

anymore

and

then

my

family

co-signed

it .

You

know ,

it's

like

how

many

times

have

y'all

done

an

intervention ,

or

I've

done

an

admission ,

where

the

client

and

the

family

are

willing

to

do

whatever

it

takes ,

and

then

30

days

go

by

and

all

of

a

sudden

she

has

to

be

at

this

birthday

party

next

week .

She

has

to .

I

gotta

buy

this

plane

ticket ,

she's

gotta

go ,

she's

gotta

be

there ,

you

know .

And

then

they

bury

their

loved

one

a

few

months

later

and

it's

like

damn ,

I

probably

should've

listened .

Speaker 3 22:26

Well ,

and

when

life

is

awful

and

our

feet

are

in

the

fire ,

you

know

it's

real

easy

to

say

you

know

what

I'll

do

whatever

you

want ,

just

save

my

life .

It's

kind

of

like

that

foxhole

prayer ,

like

just

just

like

you

were

saying

on

that

detox

floor

either

kill

me

or

help

me ,

but

pick

one .

And

you

know ,

the

ego

rebuilds .

We

start

wanting

to

do

it

our

way

again .

Yeah ,

that

wasn't

so

bad .

You

know ,

maybe

I

was

over

exaggerating

just

how

awful

that

was

and

we

start

to

rationalize .

Speaker 4 22:55

Maybe

I

was

got

sober

at

20 .

My

prefrontal

cortex

wasn't

developed

all

the

way .

Maybe

I'm

not

really

an

addict

and

alcoholic .

That's

my

delusional

thought ,

like

those

through

my

mind .

Speaker 3 23:06

It ,

despite

the

abundance

of

evidence

to

the

contrary .

Speaker 2 23:09

Yeah ,

you

don't .

You

talking

about

currently ,

like

recently

I

mean

not

in

the

last

couple

of

months ,

maybe

in

the

last

couple

of

months

but

you

talking

about

through

your

sobriety .

Your

head

will

start

telling

you

that .

Speaker 4 23:17

Oh ,

hell

yeah ,

whenever

I

get

like

disconnected

and

discontent

and

I

get

in

that

victimhood ,

that

thought

like ,

whenever

I

think

that

thought ,

that's

when

I

know

I'm

headed

for

trouble ,

right

Like ,

just

like

you

said ,

when

I

think ,

man ,

I

got

sober

when

I

was

20 ,

I

was

so

young ,

maybe

I

just

made

really

bad

choices ,

maybe

I

could

drink

successfully ,

right

Like .

And

I

think

that

people

also

think ,

like

we

get

into

recovery

and

then

we

don't

think

about

drinking

or

using

anymore ,

right ,

and

I

always

say ,

if

you

get

into

recovery

and

you

never

think

about

drinking

and

using

ever ,

you're

probably

not

one

of

us

Like ,

you're

probably

not

one

of

us

because

this

disease

centers

in

my

mind

and

even

almost

seven

years

sober ,

like ,

I

still

have

a

disease

that's

centered

in

my

mind

and

that

is

for

me

today

like

a

really

good

sign

that

I'm

slacking ,

that

I

need

to

get

on ,

I

need

to

look

at

something

you

know .

Speaker 3 24:13

I

remember

I'm

telling

on

myself

a

little

bit

here ,

but

I

remember

when

Fireball

Whiskey

came

out ,

I'd

already

been

sober

for

a

number

of

years

and

I

was

a

whiskey

drinker

and

I

remember

distinctly

thinking ,

man ,

I

bet

that

tastes

good ,

you

know .

And

just

completely

like

in

that

moment ,

thinking

I'd

love

to

try

some

of

that ,

you

know .

And

it

lasted

for

just

a

brief

moment

till

I

realized

like ,

wait

a

minute ,

hang

on .

But .

But

there

was

a

second

where

it

was

like

man ,

cinnamon

and

and

we

got

that

that

does

taste

good ,

you

know .

Yeah ,

the

things

we

allow

ourselves

to

entertain ,

it's

crazy

sometimes .

Speaker 2 24:51

Yeah ,

I

heard

people

tell

me ,

is

like

man .

It

tastes

just

like

a

fireball

and

in

my

head

I'm

like

Damn

man .

Those

things

were

good

but

they

really

weren't .

When

I

was

a

kid

I

didn't

like

them .

When

it

was ,

I

didn't

like

fireballs ,

you

know

the

little

candy

ball .

I

didn't

think

much

of

them ,

but

all

of

a

sudden

I

find

that

appealing

in

a

whiskey .

Speaker 4 25:09

Mm-hmm ,

that

was

my

experience

with

white

claw .

Speaker 3 25:12

I'm

trying

to .

I

don't

know

that

I

ever

had

that

experience

when ,

where

white

claw

sounded

good ,

I

think

that

was .

I

was

kind

of

through

that ,

that

phase .

But

there's

been

times ,

like

you

hear

about

some

of

these

new

designer

drugs

that

come

out

or

something

like

that .

I'm

like ,

huh ,

I

wonder

what

would

have

happened

if

I

had

tried

that .

You

know ,

I

think

we

all

have

those

thoughts .

I

don't

think

we

all ,

you

know ,

certainly

act

on

them ,

but

to

think

that

we

don't

have

them ,

I

think

is ,

you

know ,

dishonest .

I

think

everybody

listened

to

this

podcast

and

it

who's

in

recovery

has

had

those

thoughts .

Speaker 2 25:41

Yeah ,

mine

was

ecstasy

like

I

never ,

never

did

ecstasy

and

I

was

like

I

know ,

did

I

miss

out

something

that

I

did ?

Speaker 3 25:48

I

miss

something

there ,

you

know

as

a

guy

who

did

a

lot

of

ecstasy ,

you

didn't

miss

out

on

much ,

trust

me .

Speaker 2 25:55

That

and

quailudes .

I

feel

like

I

missed

out

on

the

quailudes .

Speaker 3 25:58

Well ,

that's

because

we

were

like

five

years

old

in

the

70s .

That's

why

I

Mean

if

we

started

at

nine ,

like

Sam ,

we

might

have

been

able

to

hit

the

quailudes ,

but

I

think

they

were

kind

of

that

we'd

moved

on

to

better

things

by

then .

I

don't

know .

Oh ,

so

You're ,

you're

reluctantly

going

to

sober

living .

You've ,

you've

decided ,

you're

gonna .

You

know ,

follow

direction .

Speaker 2 26:26

Yeah .

Speaker 3 26:27

What

do

the

next

several

years

look

like

for

you

in

early

recovery ?

Speaker 4 26:32

You

know ,

I

remember

I

Got

things

back

pretty

quick ,

you

know ,

because

I

have

never

been

arrested ,

you

know ,

and

for

a

long

time

I

was

like

I'm

not

that

bad ,

I've

never

been

arrested ,

I'm

not

that

bad ,

I

haven't ,

you

know ,

whatever .

And

the

beginning

for

me ,

I

think

the

biggest

struggle ,

was

the ,

the

damage

that

I've

done

to

my

relationships

with

my

younger

brother

and

my

dad ,

you

know ,

and

In

the

beginning

it

was

just

the

normal

stuff ,

like

getting

a

job ,

going

to

work ,

going

to

meetings ,

going

to

intensive

outpatient ,

Just

doing

the

next

right

thing ,

you

just ,

and

not

trusting

my

mind

ever ,

you

know ,

and

that

was

my

experience

for

my

first ,

like

two

years ,

and

I

remember

my

first

like

spiritual

experience ,

quote-unquote

Spiritual

experience ,

because

I've

never

had

like

a

burning

bush

spiritual

experience .

That

was

not

my

Story .

But

I

remember

like

18

months

sober

or

nine

months

over ,

something

like

that ,

something

right

around

the

year ,

I

wanted

to

get

high ,

so

bad ,

like

that

feeling

where

you

have

a

spring

in

your

stomach

and

you

cannot

Like

the

mental

obsession

is

there

and

you're

about

to

shit

yourself .

You

want

to

get

high ,

so

bad ,

you

know .

Speaker 4 27:43

And

I

had

never

been

able

to

get

past

that

ever .

I

was

always

when

I

went

out ,

every

single

time

because

I

couldn't ,

like ,

I

could

not

self-will

myself

out

of

that

spot ,

and

I

remember ,

like

clear

as

day ,

calling

my

sponsor

and

telling

her

about

it ,

and

she

said

okay ,

sam ,

this

is

what

I

want

you

to

do .

I

want

you

to

go

sit

with

a

newcomer ,

break

down

the

doctor's

opinion ,

take

them

to

a

meeting ,

share

in

that

meeting

about

what's

currently

going

on

and

be

honest .

And

then ,

if

you

still

want

to

get

high ,

go

get

high .

And

I

did

that

and

I

had

it

like

a

Crazy

experience

where ,

like

that

obsession

was

removed

instantly

for

me

and

I

was

thinking

like

holy

shit ,

like

maybe

everything

Everyone

has

been

telling

me

is

right ,

you

know .

So

I

didn't

fully

buy

into

this

deal

Until

I

was

like

over

a

year ,

sober ,

you

know ,

and

For

those

chronic

relapses ,

like

it's

hard

to

get

there ,

like

it's

it

takes

time ,

you

know ,

and

a

lot ,

of ,

a

lot

of

misery

to

like

be

willing

to

to

do

that ,

you

know

Navigating Recovery and Treatment During COVID-19

Speaker 4 28:46

.

Speaker 4 28:46

And

After

that ,

like

I

had

a

hundred

percent

bought

in

and

I

sat

all

the

way

down

and

I

Got

to .

I

became

a

house

manager

for

the

arbor

at

about

a

year

and

some

change

sober ,

not

too

long

after

that

and

I

got

to

help

other

people

and

Other

people

that

were

chronic

relapses .

See ,

that's

a

lot

of

it .

A

lot

of

what

the

arbor

does

is

chronic

relapses ,

you

know ,

people

with

severe

mental

health

and

addiction

and

I

got

to

start

giving

back

and

that

was

just

a

huge

pivot

point

in

my

recovery .

Speaker 2 29:24

Now

let

me

ask

you

at

that

point

sober ,

becoming

in

a

leader

position

and

also

Dipping

your

toe

into

working

in

the

treatment

industry ,

did

that

backfire

on

you

at

any

point ?

Because

I

know

it's

very

difficult

for

us

to

work

in

the

treatment

industry .

We

work

around

recovery

all

day .

The

last

thing

I

want

to

do

when

I

get

home

is

talk

about

recovery .

Speaker 4 29:45

It's

a

good

question ,

so

Not

one .

Speaker 2 29:47

Well ,

that's

why

we

do

it ,

that's

why

we're

podcasters ,

because

we

asked

Damn

good

questions .

Speaker 4 29:54

Not

necessarily

when

I

was

a

house

manager

and

not

necessarily

because

then

I

became

a

tech

at

the

residential ,

you

know ,

around

two

years

sober

and

then .

But

I

became

a

recovery

manager

and

a

roll

of

recovery

manager

is

to

walk

people

through

the

12

steps

and

a

year

into

that

I

was

so

done

with

recovery .

I

was

so

Tired

because ,

as

far

as

like

the

12-step

work

because

I

I'm

walking

13 ,

14

women

through

the

work

at

work

a

week

and

the

last

thing

I

wanted

to

do

is

go

home

and

talk

about

the

12

steps

it

was

the

last

thing

I

wanted

to

do

and

I

mean

I

made

that

my

recovery .

I

really

did .

I

made

that

my

recovery

and

I

made

that

my

sponsorship .

Speaker 4 30:43

And ,

and

you

know ,

I

was

sitting

on

the

couch

one

day

and

I

was

looking

at

my

dog

because

I

love

my

dogs

more

than

anything

in

the

world

and

I

was

like

I'm

gonna

lose

my

dogs

because

I'm

gonna

get

high

soon ,

you

know ,

and

I

literally

got

off

the

couch ,

went

to

a

meeting ,

got

honest

like ,

did

all

the

things

that

people

suggest

me

to

do ,

and

then

I

Changed

jobs ,

you

know ,

because

that's

not

the

job

for

me ,

you

know ,

and

so

I

got

out

of

it

because

I'm

not

willing

to

put

anything

above

my

recovery ,

and

working

in

treatment

is

not

my

recovery ,

it

can't

be

so

at

what

point

did

you

start

working

in

the

admissions

department

at

the

Arbor ?

Speaker 4 31:25

2019

2020 .

Speaker 3 31:27

I

started

working

in

admissions

just

as

the

pandemic

was

kicking

off ,

huh .

Speaker 4 31:32

Yes ,

right

as

the

pandemic

with

it ,

literally

like

I

think

that

same

week

or

something

like

that ,

and

that

just

changed

the

way

treatment ,

the

way

we

brought

people

into

treatment

to

an

extreme

and

it

made

it

very

difficult

for

people

to

get

help

one

they

were

terrified

of

going

into

groups

of

people

and

the

whole

world

just

started

isolating ,

you

know ,

and

as

we

all

know ,

like

addiction

and

mental

illness

lives

in

isolation ,

and

so

it's

just ,

I

mean

the

whole

world

and

and

the

family

dynamics

I

mean .

I

really

think

like

Family

dynamics

change

so

much

when

COVID

hit ,

you

know ,

it's

just

like

yeah .

Speaker 4 32:19

We

thought

we

could

save

them

to

a

way

more

extreme

than

I

saw

before ,

you

know .

Speaker 3 32:25

Yeah

well ,

everybody's

together ,

everybody's

got

eyes

on

one

another .

I

can

see

the

problem .

I'm

right

here ,

I've

got

hands

on ,

and

the

delusion

is

is

that ,

if

I

can

see

it ,

if

they're

under

my

roof ,

I

can

control

this .

Speaker 4 32:40

Yeah .

Speaker 2 32:41

You

know

that

COVID

really

rocked

the

world

of

recovery

in

the

12-step

rooms

and

the

way

the

treatment

industry

works ,

and

and

I

would

and

I've

said

this

and

thought

this

before

that

Now

I

feel

like

I

came

out

a

little

unscathed .

But

as

I'm

coming

to

this

awareness

around

what

I'm

really

doing

from

my

recovery ,

I'm

realizing

that

it

was

during

COVID

is

where

I

peeled

away

from

the

12-step

Fellowship ,

the

fellowship

of

the

12

steps ,

and

I

justified

the

absolute

shit

out

of

that

with

my

opinions

around

people ,

of

my

alcoholic

opinions

around

people .

Because

I'm

watching

it

and

really

what

was

needed

was

for

me

to

step

up

and

be

more

a

part

of

the

fellowship ,

because

it's

really

when

it

needed

us

During

these

trying

times .

It

needed

me ,

not

that

I

was

all

important ,

but

as

a

member

I

was

needed

and

I

peeled

away

and

I

justified

it

by

saying

you

know ,

because

I'm

looking

at

my

friends

on

one

side

of

the

aisle ,

that

took

it

just

to

a

fucking

extreme

and

I

feel

like

I

lost

respect

because

it

really

what

it

was .

I

was

judging

the

shit

out

of

them

and

then

my

friends

on

the

other

side

of

the

aisle

that

took

it

to

the

opposite

extreme .

Speaker 2 33:51

I

feel

like

I

lost

respect

for

them

but

really

what

I

was

doing

was

judging

the

shit

out

of

them ,

right ,

and

I

just

like

man ,

I'm

done

with

people ,

I'm

done

with

people

and

that

was

my

out ,

that

was

my

you

know

bow

out

of

Really

engagement

in

the

fellowship

the

way

that

I

should

have

been ,

in

the

way

that

I

was .

Covid

messed

up

a

lot

of

shit .

It

really

did ,

and

it's

not

just

like

COVID

messed

up

a

lot

of

shit .

Our

Reaction

to

COVID

messed

up

a

lot

of

shit

for

sure .

Speaker 3 34:20

Yeah ,

and

you

know ,

even

in

the

way

that

we

did

interventions ,

I

didn't

stop

traveling .

I

don't

think

you

stop

traveling

and

doing

interventions .

During

the ,

the

pandemic ,

I

know

that

there

were

some

interventionists

out

there

that

would

only

do

interventions

via

zoom .

Wow ,

and

I

was

like

how

in

the

world

do

you

make

that

work ?

You

know

that

just

doesn't

seem

practical .

Or ,

you

know ,

with

any

you

you

know

you're

not

gonna

be

successful .

I

mean ,

I'm

not

saying

they

weren't ,

I

just

couldn't

see

myself

being

successful

with

that

dynamic .

And

you

know

I

did

plenty

of

interventions

outside

and

certainly

with

masks .

And

you

know

the

reality

is

the

people

that

we

work

with

are

gonna

die

of

addiction

way

before

they

die

of

COVID ,

most

likely .

Yeah ,

so ,

in

spite

of

the

fact

that

you

know

there

was

a

lot

of

fear

and

certainly

a

lot

of

risk ,

um ,

I

think

it .

It

distracted

us

from

the

real

threat

with

the

people

that

we

work

with

and

the

families

that

we

work

with .

Speaker 4 35:12

Yeah ,

and

can

you

imagine

like

trying

to

get

sober

in

the

middle

of

COVID ,

like

all

the

meetings

are

on

Zoom

I

mean

intensive

outpatient

was

on

Zoom .

Speaker 4 35:23

Like

all

those

people

that

I

worked

with

that

are

sober

today ,

that

got

sober

during

COVID ,

like

I

have

a

whole

new

respect

for

it

because

they

didn't

have

that

like

sense

of

community

that

we

had ,

like

when

we

first

got

sober

and

you

walked

into

a

room

and

there's

50

people

in

a

room

and

they're

all

just

like

wrapping

you

up ,

putting

your

arms

around

you ,

like ,

oh

my

God ,

I'm

so

glad

you

made

it .

It's

like

I

have

a

whole

new

respect

for

people

that

got

sober

during

COVID ,

like

yeah .

Yeah .

Speaker 2 35:52

Yeah ,

I

did

an

intervention

training

on

Zoom

and

it

was ,

you

know ,

I

felt

just

horrible

for

people

that

that's

what

they

had

with

Zoom ,

aa

meetings ,

you

know ,

or

Zoom

in

a

meetings

or

CA

or

whatever .

Uh ,

it's

difficult .

Yeah ,

I'm

with

you

on

that

one

man .

Mad

respect

for

those

that

got

sober

during

that

time ,

mad

respect .

And

you

talk

about

a

justifiable

out

of

not

going

to

treatment .

Yeah ,

you

know ,

like

I'm

not

going

to

treatment .

Yeah ,

you're

crazy ,

covid

going

on .

Yeah ,

yeah .

Speaker 3 36:25

I've

had

people

ask

me ,

sam ,

what

the

trainings

that

we

do ,

you

know ,

is

this

online

or

is

this

in

person ?

And

I

said ,

oh ,

no ,

it's

in

person .

Speaker 1 36:31

Oh

yeah ,

I

don't

know .

I

don't

know .

Speaker 3 36:33

You

know ,

it's

like

I'd

rather

turn

off

my

camera

and

pretend

to

be

there

for

you

know ,

eight

hours

a

day

than

actually

like

have

to

show

up

and

and

do

this ,

and

at

least

that's

my

impression

of

you

know ,

when

I

get

asked

that

question .

Speaker 3 36:45

I

see

that

reaction .

But

so ,

sam ,

let's

kind

of

get

back

to

where

you're

at

now .

Like

you're

working

at

the

Arbor ,

you're

the

admissions

director

there .

Sam

and

I ,

of

course

are

both

familiar .

We've

had

clients

go

through

the

Arbor .

We

both

actually

work

there

at

one

point

before

we

started

doing

intervention

work

full

time .

That's

where

Sam

and

I

kind

of

reconnected

and

really

kind

of

concretized

our

friendship

was

during

that

time

that

we

were

both

working

at

the

Arbor .

So

it

certainly

holds

a

place

in

my

heart

and

you

know

Sam's

probably

kicking

himself

for

having

run

into

me

again

while

Unique Structure and Programs at Arbor

Speaker 3 37:20

we

were

working

there .

But

at

any

rate ,

tell

us

a

little

bit

about

what

the

Arbor

is ,

what

it

does ,

why

it's

maybe

a

little

different

as

far

as

the

structure

than

most

treatment

programs .

Speaker 4 37:34

You

know ,

and

I'm

going

to

answer

that

question ,

but

I'm

going

to

answer

it

in

a

so

like

the

industry

nowadays ,

right ,

the

industry

currently .

There's

so

many

treatment

centers

now

and

I

get

asked

that

question

a

lot

and

it's

really

hard

for

me

to

put ,

to

put

it

into

words

Because ,

like

the

truth

is

is

I

am

very

good

at

what

I

do

because

of

what

I've

been

through ,

right ,

and

I

could

probably

work

at

any

treatment

center

that

I

wanted

to

as

an

admissions

rep .

And

there's

a

reason

why

that

I

work

at

the

Arbor

and

I

think ,

like

the

biggest

thing

that

sets

us

apart

is

that

we're

a

family

owned

and

operated

facility

and ,

just

to

be

like

our

owners ,

this

is

not

their

only

company ,

this

is

their

passion .

Like

this

is

what

they

do

because

they

are

in

recovery

and

they

love

helping

people .

And

the

Arbor

is

not ,

it's

not

a

corporate

company ,

it's

not

a .

I

don't

sit

in

the

owner's

meetings ,

the

monthly

meetings

that

we

do ,

and

talk

about

the

bottom

line ,

like

we

talk

about

what

we're

doing

to

help

people .

Speaker 4 38:47

A

big

thing

that

one

of

the

owners

emphasizes

on

is

the

12

step

program

that

we

offer .

Like

that

is

that's

what

he

cares

about ,

you

know .

And

the

other

one .

The

big

thing

that

he

cares

about

is

the

12

step

recovery

and

clinical

work .

Like

that's

what

they

care

about .

And

so

I

think ,

like ,

right

there ,

just

getting

a

little

snapshot

of

like

what

the

people

at

the

very

top

care

about ,

like

that ,

right

there

is

the

big

thing

that

trickles

down

to

the

entire

program .

Speaker 4 39:16

That

sets

us

apart ,

you

know ,

and

two

things

that

I

would

say ,

like

as

far

as

what

the

Arbor

offers

that

you're

not

going

to

get

better

anywhere

else ,

is

our

family

program .

Our

executive

director

is

a

PhD

in

license

and

marriage

family

therapy

and

he

built

this

family

program

with

Amy

Alden ,

which

a

lot

of

people

know

who

Amy

Alden

is .

She's

got

two

sons

in

recovery ,

she's

been

in

recovery

for

15

plus

years

and

they've

built

this

beautiful

family

program

in

person ,

nine

to

five ,

two

days

a

week .

We

do

a

family

outpatient

program .

That's

in

person

for

two

months ,

twice

a

week ,

you

know ,

and

it's

for

families .

Speaker 3 40:00

And

let

me

ask

you

this ,

because

I

know

this

is

the

way

that

it

used

to

be

and

you

can

correct

me

if

I'm

wrong ,

if

it's

not

this

way

anymore

but

you

don't

have

to

have

a

client

at

the

Arbor

to

be

able

to

go

through

the

family

program

there .

Is

that

correct ?

100% ,

100% .

Speaker 4 40:12

And

we

offer

a

family

support

group

via

Zoom

Wednesday

night

so

you

can

attend

from

anywhere .

You

do

not

have

to

have

a

loved

one

in

recovery

to

be

a

part

of

that

family

support

group .

You

do

not

have

to

pay

for

that

to

be

a

part

of

it .

It's

completely

free

and

it's

accessible

from

anywhere .

And

it's

beautiful

because

we

have

families

that

have

been

with

the

Arbor

for

eight ,

nine

years

that

attend

that

family

support

group

and

then

families

that

are

just

joining ,

you

know ,

and

so

we're

so

used

to

the

treatment

environment

where

you

drop

your

loved

one

off

and

you

come

and

pick

them

up

30

days

later

and

there's

no

real

effective

change

to

the

family .

And ,

like

I

said ,

like

the

big

thing

that

changed

for

me ,

that

got

me

sober ,

is

that

my

family

held

boundaries

and

the

Arbor

did

that

for

me

and

I

hated

them

for

it .

But

I'm

so

grateful

now

that

they

taught

my

family

how

to

not

participate

in

my

addiction ,

because

if

addiction

has

resources ,

it's

going

to

thrive ,

period .

You

know

that

is

the

major

thing

that

sets

us

apart .

Speaker 4 41:12

And

the

other

piece

is

equine

therapy .

I

mean ,

we're

on

80

acres ,

we

have

11

equine

horses

and

we're

used

to

the

therapy

where

you

sit

in

the

office

and

you

talk

about

your

feelings .

You

know

it's

very

important ,

but

this

is

like

experiential .

So

you're

moving

your

body ,

you're

talking

about

regulation

and

a

horse

does

not

care

about

what

you

did

last

week

or

yesterday

or

how

you're

going

to

manipulate

them

into

thinking ,

and

it's .

Speaker 4 41:34

I

thought

it

was

a

bunch

of

crap

when

I

first

got

introduced

to

it

and

I

was

not

a

crier ,

I

was

not

an

individual

Like .

I

knew

how

to

work

a

therapist ,

I

knew

how

to

show

up

in

group .

I've

been

to

treatment

10

times ,

you

know ,

and

I

got

in

a

round

pen

with

a

horse

and

I

was

balling

within

like

five

minutes

and

it

was .

It

was

huge

for

me ,

you

know .

But

then

it's

tough ,

right ,

because ,

like ,

I'm

working

with

families

that

are

talking

to

four

different

treatment

centers

and

it's

like

how

do

you

portray

that ,

that

experience

versus

a

bunch

of

like

truth

be

told ,

like

there's

a

lot

of

run

of

the

mill

places

out

there .

There's

a

lot

of

good

places ,

a

lot

of

good

treatment

options ,

but

there's

a

lot

of

not

good

ones

too ,

you

know .

So

I

don't

know

if

that

answered

your

question ,

but

that's

my

answer .

Speaker 3 42:26

Well ,