EP 14 · The Party Wreckers Podcast

Why We Hate The Words: "Tough Love"

Jul 13, 202245 minHosted by Matt Brown

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About this episode

Matt and Sam discuss their white hot hate for the words: Tough Love. What does setting boundaries really mean? How do we do it effectively during an intervention. Matt points out the only two criteria for setting a boundary during an intervent...

Episode transcript

Read the full transcript(10,596 words)

[matt_brown]: 0:00

yeah hello everyone welcome to another episode of the party records i'm matt brown i'm here with sam davis we are the party records and we're really happy to be here with you today sam what do you know

[samuel_davis]: 0:13

i don't know it matt brown how are you doing today how was your father's day

[matt_brown]: 0:18

father's day was good went out on a hike with the family got a chance to just kind of be out and enjoy a beautiful part oregon that's fairly close by to where we're at right here we just went over to really nice beautiful creek over near sister's oregon and hiked around there had a nice father's day dinner and yeah kind of low key how about you

[samuel_davis]: 0:39

it was wonderful one for the books the youngest son washed my truck ah and then he took it for about twenty laps around the around the neighborhood at fifteen

[matt_brown]: 0:52

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 0:52

and

[matt_brown]: 0:53

[samuel_davis]: 0:55

we all had a

[matt_brown]: 0:56

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 0:56

great dinner or lunch with the family

[matt_brown]: 0:59

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 0:59

with my father and i had just about tortured to death when i was in active addiction and we've got a fantastic relationship it was just really low key we sat on the porch of the river and eight crabs and just talked about old times and family history and just it was just a wonderful day

[matt_brown]: 1:16

[samuel_davis]: 1:16

to be alive so

[matt_brown]: 1:19

very nice that does sound like a good one

[samuel_davis]: 1:21

yeah yeah

[matt_brown]: 1:22

well how's work going for you

[samuel_davis]: 1:25

a lot of calls i don't have any interventions

[matt_brown]: 1:27

all

[samuel_davis]: 1:27

booked for this week so far but i've been getting plenty of calls and a lot of emails

[matt_brown]: 1:33

[samuel_davis]: 1:33

and inquiries got a lot of irons in the

[matt_brown]: 1:37

[samuel_davis]: 1:37

fire

[matt_brown]: 1:37

lot of

[samuel_davis]: 1:38

that's always a good thing but

[matt_brown]: 1:39

[samuel_davis]: 1:39

you know

[matt_brown]: 1:40

kay

[samuel_davis]: 1:42

it's uh we've got

[matt_brown]: 1:43

[samuel_davis]: 1:43

a pretty good gig you know we've got

[matt_brown]: 1:46

yes

[samuel_davis]: 1:46

a pretty

[matt_brown]: 1:46

[samuel_davis]: 1:46

good

[matt_brown]: 1:46

[samuel_davis]: 1:46

life here don't we

[matt_brown]: 1:48

yeah we do kind of in a similar situation out here on this side of the country i'm getting quite a few phone calls but it just seems like it's you know it's this time of year that things start to get a little as you're with the younger crowd

[samuel_davis]: 2:00

yeah

[matt_brown]: 2:00

i find you know the eighteen twenty five year old the kids that are coming home from college

[samuel_davis]: 2:05

yeah

[matt_brown]: 2:06

they've they've been away they've whether they've gone to class or not their grades are not great mom and dad are finally catching up to what's really been going on during the last semester and i'm starting to get some of those phone calls and you know some of the older crowd as well i find that since the pandemic started i've been working with a little bit more of an older group i think the pandemic as been hard on on those that are not used to the technological isolation like the younger crowd is you know the when you're when you're living life on a screen anyways this pandemic hasn't been as hard on you but those of us that didn't grow up looking at screens all day long i think it's been a little harder for us so it's it's an interesting dynamic but yeah things are things we're starting to pick up a little bit here as we get into june and n actually the end of june now and closer to july

[samuel_davis]: 2:56

yeah i'm not trying to be

[matt_brown]: 2:58

[samuel_davis]: 2:59

penny

[matt_brown]: 2:59

[samuel_davis]: 2:59

in where the sky's falling here but before the pandemic matt there was what twenty three million americans suffering

[matt_brown]: 3:06

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 3:06

from addiction twenty

[matt_brown]: 3:08

[samuel_davis]: 3:08

five

[matt_brown]: 3:08

think those

[samuel_davis]: 3:09

million americans

[matt_brown]: 3:10

yeah i think those numbers are back from like two thousand and sixteen last time

[samuel_davis]: 3:13

yeah

[matt_brown]: 3:13

they did that study so i mean those are those are old numbers but i can't imagine they've gone down

[samuel_davis]: 3:17

yeah

[matt_brown]: 3:17

any

[samuel_davis]: 3:18

[matt_brown]: 3:18

yah

[samuel_davis]: 3:18

they haven't gone down but what's not spoken a lot of is the every addicted individual of that twenty three million or twenty five million whatever it is today i doubt

[matt_brown]: 3:29

[samuel_davis]: 3:29

like said datis going down man there's

[matt_brown]: 3:32

yes

[samuel_davis]: 3:33

there's one of average five family members that are suffering and struggling right along with that addicted

[matt_brown]: 3:39

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 3:39

individual so you're talking what hundred million hundred and twenty five million people that now you're suffering and struggling

[matt_brown]: 3:46

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 3:47

around addiction

[matt_brown]: 3:48

[samuel_davis]: 3:49

and then the pandemic hits

[matt_brown]: 3:51

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 3:51

people that that weren't emotionally

[matt_brown]: 3:53

m o

[samuel_davis]: 3:54

equipped to deal with that already emotionally stressed due to the life that's going on around them and then this hits the addiction gets worse the family dynamic gets worse just tip the scales buddy where we're in a mess right now we're in a mess

[matt_brown]: 4:11

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 4:12

[matt_brown]: 4:12

[samuel_davis]: 4:12

a nation

[matt_brown]: 4:12

are we are and this is going to play out for i don't know how long i mean when you look at you know my seven year old during the pandemic she lived more than twenty five per cent of her life in a mask

[samuel_davis]: 4:24

[matt_brown]: 4:24

and and i'm not i'm not commenting on whether people need to wear masks or not i'm not but when you look at the barrier to action that happened like during the pandemic i didn't want people to wear masks during the interventions because it prevents that connection that naturally needs to happen from happening and when you have seven year old who's going through school i mean one year she didn't even go to school it was all virtual you create that barrier to connection that people need i mean to think that more than twenty at that point more than twenty five percent of her life was spent wearing one of those things it's uh i think we're going to see some some fall from this that we don't even realize yet oh

[samuel_davis]: 5:03

yeah we're starting to see it

[matt_brown]: 5:05

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 5:06

but it's like a tide coming in the tide doesn't come in all at once it's a gradual build and we're seeing it we're starting to see the rise and i would say just my layman's best guest

[matt_brown]: 5:20

yes

[samuel_davis]: 5:21

in about five years it's gonna we're going to see some a lot of damage from from what's happened two thousand twenty

[matt_brown]: 5:28

[samuel_davis]: 5:28

two thousand twenty one in far as you know my kid you're saying your daughter twenty five percent er life in a mask of during that time that's horrible you know my son who was in school old son to his last senior year missed everything of the senior year all of that

[matt_brown]: 5:48

all

[samuel_davis]: 5:48

that that you are longing for is a high school or to get to when you're senior year just shut off one day

[matt_brown]: 5:56

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 5:56

it was done

[matt_brown]: 5:56

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 5:56

that was it and my youngest son he had a crew of people that he ran around with

[matt_brown]: 6:02

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 6:02

they were very social very active and during the pandemic when it was at its peak it just everyone was isolated and you know he's that crew his pretty much dispersed

[matt_brown]: 6:18

[samuel_davis]: 6:19

a couple of those kids they don't they won't leave the house now they're

[matt_brown]: 6:23

[samuel_davis]: 6:23

isolating on the computers

[matt_brown]: 6:24

[samuel_davis]: 6:24

and so

[matt_brown]: 6:25

yeah yeah

[samuel_davis]: 6:26

you know he's we've got the summer place that he goes to

[matt_brown]: 6:30

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 6:30

and he's hanging around twenty thirty kids now so he's you know there there all active in each other's face and running around playing basketball doing what kids do but that period of time for that age group was horrible

[matt_brown]: 6:43

[samuel_davis]: 6:43

and it wasn't any better for the adults really is i hate

[matt_brown]: 6:48

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 6:48

to see it

[matt_brown]: 6:50

well

[samuel_davis]: 6:50

to see

[matt_brown]: 6:50

we're

[samuel_davis]: 6:50

[matt_brown]: 6:50

wired for connection i think that as human beings we were travel we we thrive in community and and i think when we when we had that taken away from us it really it amplified a lot of the mental health issues that our country s dealing with that the world is dealing with and no i think we saw increase and i don't know what the numbers are again i'm just speculating here but i think we saw a pretty significant increase in crime i think we saw a pretty significant increase in homelessness you know especially after the the moritoriums on evictions ran out there were a number of people that you know basically we're just

[samuel_davis]: 7:30

yeah

[matt_brown]: 7:30

biding their time because they knew they were

[samuel_davis]: 7:32

[matt_brown]: 7:32

going to get a victim the economic impacts of all this hit people and they couldn't pay their bills and and ended up getting put out and i think that the number of homeless in this country has gone up pretty exponentially as well and i think we're going to see some pretty significant impacts from that

[samuel_davis]: 7:48

yeah

[matt_brown]: 7:49

[samuel_davis]: 7:49

yeah and let's bring in six

[matt_brown]: 7:51

[samuel_davis]: 7:51

dollar a gallon fuel let's bring in

[matt_brown]: 7:53

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 7:53

five dollar gallon gasoline you know six dollar a jar manage it that type

[matt_brown]: 7:59

yah

[samuel_davis]: 7:59

of thing um

[matt_brown]: 8:01

you know and here we are we were a podcast that talks about intervention and addiction and you know we're talking about the pandemic we're talking about economy but the reality is all of this affects addiction because all of this off

[samuel_davis]: 8:13

yeah

[matt_brown]: 8:14

is how people feel and when you

[samuel_davis]: 8:16

[matt_brown]: 8:16

eftwwhen you when you take into account how people react

[samuel_davis]: 8:19

[matt_brown]: 8:20

emotionally to things when people lack

[samuel_davis]: 8:23

[matt_brown]: 8:23

the skills and the tools to be able to manage their emotions in the first place like those of us that struggle with addiction and alcoholism you're going to see that trickle down and it's going to manifest in that in what we do no matter what it's unfortunately going to manifest in a bad way i think but we'll have to see

[samuel_davis]: 8:42

yeah you know you think about it the height of height of it

[matt_brown]: 8:46

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 8:47

in this situation we couldn't there's many many people that could not fight it or flight it

[matt_brown]: 8:53

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 8:54

so they

[matt_brown]: 8:55

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 8:55

check out tune

[matt_brown]: 8:56

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 8:56

out look for something

[matt_brown]: 8:57

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 8:58

to numb down from it the

[matt_brown]: 9:00

well

[samuel_davis]: 9:00

drugs

[matt_brown]: 9:00

and it's

[samuel_davis]: 9:00

and

[matt_brown]: 9:01

funny

[samuel_davis]: 9:01

alcohol

[matt_brown]: 9:01

i was i was reading a book and

[samuel_davis]: 9:04

[matt_brown]: 9:04

this this numbing behavior it's not exclusive to h to those of us that struggle with addiction it's just heightened in all of us everybody has behaviors where they just want to tune out for a little bit whether it's watching t v whether it's hopping on social media everybody does it there's not a person in this world that can say that they don't have some behavior thing that they do to kind of check out for a little bit but i think that you know the more we do it the more habitual it becomes and again you know it crosses that line and it becomes compulsive excuse me

[samuel_davis]: 9:40

you go to do same

[matt_brown]: 9:42

well

[samuel_davis]: 9:43

yeah

[matt_brown]: 9:43

sam

[samuel_davis]: 9:43

i agree

[matt_brown]: 9:44

there was there was something on your mind today as we were jumping on here today let's hear that

[samuel_davis]: 9:48

well we were supposed to have a guest on today

[matt_brown]: 9:51

[samuel_davis]: 9:51

and

[matt_brown]: 9:52

m yeah

[samuel_davis]: 9:52

she couldn't make it she was having some technical difficulties

[matt_brown]: 9:55

oh oh

[samuel_davis]: 9:56

and that's unfortunate because i think we're in for a hell of a story from

[matt_brown]: 9:59

[samuel_davis]: 9:59

her

[matt_brown]: 10:00

we'll

[samuel_davis]: 10:00

but

[matt_brown]: 10:00

get

[samuel_davis]: 10:01

well

[matt_brown]: 10:01

her on we'll

[samuel_davis]: 10:01

oh yeah

[matt_brown]: 10:01

figure that out

[samuel_davis]: 10:02

yeah it's gonna

[matt_brown]: 10:03

[samuel_davis]: 10:03

happen we're gonna make it

[matt_brown]: 10:04

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 10:04

happen it just couldn't be to day and you know i'm a

[matt_brown]: 10:09

[samuel_davis]: 10:11

what tall i gonna say here you know we've spoken before about the power

[matt_brown]: 10:16

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 10:16

of the word and how crucial it is

[matt_brown]: 10:18

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 10:18

to be done correctly and what you're speaking and not only yourself but to or not at you know we speak

[matt_brown]: 10:27

[samuel_davis]: 10:27

a lot about the power of the word and

[matt_brown]: 10:30

[samuel_davis]: 10:30

it's crucial of what's said and what's not

[matt_brown]: 10:32

[samuel_davis]: 10:32

said not only

[matt_brown]: 10:34

[samuel_davis]: 10:34

of what you're speaking to

[matt_brown]: 10:35

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 10:35

other people but what you're telling yourself in this word this phrase that

[matt_brown]: 10:39

rat

[samuel_davis]: 10:39

keeps coming up and the realm of addiction and families

[matt_brown]: 10:44

[samuel_davis]: 10:45

suffering with it and just

[matt_brown]: 10:46

yes

[samuel_davis]: 10:46

the general population

[matt_brown]: 10:47

[samuel_davis]: 10:48

talking about addiction what they think works best is this word tough love

[matt_brown]: 10:53

[samuel_davis]: 10:53

and i've done a video on it before

[matt_brown]: 10:54

[samuel_davis]: 10:55

for tik tok explaining with tough

[matt_brown]: 10:58

[samuel_davis]: 10:58

love and i just i feel like that whole phrase should just be discontinued you know if we're if we're in the culture now we're canceling things and band and all kinds are things that cause discomfort or anything

[matt_brown]: 11:10

[samuel_davis]: 11:10

any way shape reform i think that the

[matt_brown]: 11:12

thanks

[samuel_davis]: 11:13

top of the list should be tough love the phrase tough love because

[matt_brown]: 11:19

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 11:19

so many people think that it

[matt_brown]: 11:21

[samuel_davis]: 11:21

means just casting your love went out turning your back on them shaming them

[matt_brown]: 11:27

[samuel_davis]: 11:27

blaming

[matt_brown]: 11:27

ship

[samuel_davis]: 11:28

them yelling

[matt_brown]: 11:30

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 11:31

just disowning them and it's not and

[matt_brown]: 11:36

okay

[samuel_davis]: 11:37

i did a video explaining a scenario that i had

[matt_brown]: 11:43

sen

[samuel_davis]: 11:44

with this family down in down south

[matt_brown]: 11:47

[samuel_davis]: 11:47

and they had offered their loved ones help go to treatment he nineteen years old

[matt_brown]: 11:53

[samuel_davis]: 11:54

had the range

[matt_brown]: 11:55

and you've

[samuel_davis]: 11:55

of treatment

[matt_brown]: 11:55

got some

[samuel_davis]: 11:55

program

[matt_brown]: 11:55

audio you've got some audio from that right let's hear that

[samuel_davis]: 11:58

yeah yeah you want to hear it you know more than i can

[matt_brown]: 12:00

[samuel_davis]: 12:00

explain

[matt_brown]: 12:00

[samuel_davis]: 12:01

it everybody hearing me i'm going to go ahead

[matt_brown]: 12:04

[samuel_davis]: 12:04

we're just going a play it all right but

[matt_brown]: 12:06

yeah let's

[samuel_davis]: 12:06

what

[matt_brown]: 12:06

hear

[samuel_davis]: 12:06

happened

[matt_brown]: 12:07

you bet

[samuel_davis]: 12:07

in the reason that i'm going to play it and the reason i think it's so important is there's been over a thousand comments on this about

[matt_brown]: 12:14

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 12:15

eighty five to ninety percent of the comments agree with the tactic that was taking place but only about two per cent of the comments really understood

[matt_brown]: 12:27

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 12:28

what there and i'm using

[matt_brown]: 12:30

[samuel_davis]: 12:30

my fingers here in air quotes of tough

[matt_brown]: 12:32

yea

[samuel_davis]: 12:32

love

[matt_brown]: 12:33

[samuel_davis]: 12:33

was really about i even

[matt_brown]: 12:34

[samuel_davis]: 12:35

had clinicians come on saying

[matt_brown]: 12:37

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 12:37

that they disagree that that kid could die in the street you know seeing too many of our kids

[matt_brown]: 12:44

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 12:44

out here dying which i get it i understand that but i'm going to play it

[matt_brown]: 12:49

i'm on

[samuel_davis]: 12:50

and then we'll go from there how about that

[matt_brown]: 12:52

sounds good let's hear it

[samuel_davis]: 12:54

so i

[matt_brown]: 12:55

[samuel_davis]: 12:55

got this nineteen year old with a family that i'm working with and they told him if he wouldn't go to treatment he's got he's got to leave there thy will no longer en he got

[matt_brown]: 13:04

[samuel_davis]: 13:04

on his basket and he paddled away amy scared to death they engage

[matt_brown]: 13:09

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 13:09

my services to help kind of coach them through this deal we don't need really an intervention because they kind of did

[matt_brown]: 13:13

[samuel_davis]: 13:14

they just need guidance one that doesn't have an emotional attachment to this situation someone who's done

[matt_brown]: 13:21

m yes

[samuel_davis]: 13:24

they've asked me to help them out with this thing dad calls me and he says an i haven't heard from in four hours

[matt_brown]: 13:30

[samuel_davis]: 13:30

what do we do man you don't do anything you continue to hold that

[matt_brown]: 13:35

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 13:35

boundary and you don't rob your son of the experience that he needs right now and i guarantee you he's having an experience just as you're in torture you don't know where he is and what he's doing es in torture too you all are doing what you're supposed to do he's out there having the experience you're allowing the experience and you're setting

[matt_brown]: 13:54

yes

[samuel_davis]: 13:54

a boundary kid is going surface

[matt_brown]: 13:57

[samuel_davis]: 13:57

one day and won't be too

[matt_brown]: 13:58

[samuel_davis]: 13:58

long i because he's not used to being on the

[matt_brown]: 14:00

[samuel_davis]: 14:00

street and i think once he gets to treatment he's going

[matt_brown]: 14:04

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 14:04

to have a completely different experience than if he went just because his family asked him to go sometimes you know life you just got to go through ship

[matt_brown]: 14:14

[samuel_davis]: 14:14

family's neck deep if they were to back out and go back to enabling them just to make themselves feel better they

[matt_brown]: 14:21

yes

[samuel_davis]: 14:21

start this whole thing over again when your

[matt_brown]: 14:24

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 14:24

neck deep in a bunch of ship you just got to keep going just got to keep going say a little prayer for this fame use it thank im up

[matt_brown]: 14:34

[samuel_davis]: 14:36

what do you think about that matt

[matt_brown]: 14:37

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 14:38

what would have been your strategy there

[matt_brown]: 14:41

probably something similar without knowing all the details just based on what you're you're telling me and what i'm hearing they gave him a choice now and this is somebody who's of age said i think you said ten age but he's over eighteen right

[samuel_davis]: 14:57

he's an adult

[matt_brown]: 14:58

okay so

[samuel_davis]: 14:59

yeah

[matt_brown]: 14:59

they gave

[samuel_davis]: 14:59

and

[matt_brown]: 14:59

him a

[samuel_davis]: 15:00

he's doing fennell every day in their house every day he was doing fenton was it not working

[matt_brown]: 15:08

not

[samuel_davis]: 15:08

fully supported

[matt_brown]: 15:09

fully

[samuel_davis]: 15:09

one hundred per

[matt_brown]: 15:10

[samuel_davis]: 15:10

cent by the

[matt_brown]: 15:10

per

[samuel_davis]: 15:11

family now

[matt_brown]: 15:12

[samuel_davis]: 15:12

before they contacted me when i say

[matt_brown]: 15:17

what

[samuel_davis]: 15:17

they did

[matt_brown]: 15:17

they

[samuel_davis]: 15:17

an intervention

[matt_brown]: 15:17

did an inter

[samuel_davis]: 15:19

it was just

[matt_brown]: 15:20

was

[samuel_davis]: 15:20

mom and dad and him

[matt_brown]: 15:23

right

[samuel_davis]: 15:23

and it wasn't scripted it wasn't got they didn't have there

[matt_brown]: 15:26

[samuel_davis]: 15:26

were other family members that were concerned

[matt_brown]: 15:28

[samuel_davis]: 15:29

and they're big family scattered all

[matt_brown]: 15:32

there

[samuel_davis]: 15:33

over

[matt_brown]: 15:33

all

[samuel_davis]: 15:33

the south so from what

[matt_brown]: 15:36

from

[samuel_davis]: 15:36

[matt_brown]: 15:36

what

[samuel_davis]: 15:36

gathered

[matt_brown]: 15:37

i gathered

[samuel_davis]: 15:37

the dad

[matt_brown]: 15:38

[samuel_davis]: 15:38

just into mom just said lo we got to treat ment program here to go you're gonna go he was like you know yeah i'll go and then he decided

[matt_brown]: 15:44

[samuel_davis]: 15:44

not to go

[matt_brown]: 15:45

[samuel_davis]: 15:45

so they said if you're not and you can't stay

[matt_brown]: 15:47

yes

[samuel_davis]: 15:47

here which was the right thing to do but when you're speaking about the power of the word i'm positive that they did not communicate that correctly and they lost

[matt_brown]: 15:59

[samuel_davis]: 15:59

power by not having other members of the family there to express their concern and word it a good way so i am certain

[matt_brown]: 16:06

i'm

[samuel_davis]: 16:07

that this

[matt_brown]: 16:07

this

[samuel_davis]: 16:07

was done in some anger and entment and fear driven

[matt_brown]: 16:11

okay

[samuel_davis]: 16:12

in any event the guys got on his bicycle and peddled away said no thanks i don't want treatment so i've had

[matt_brown]: 16:19

[samuel_davis]: 16:20

there was a therapist

[matt_brown]: 16:21

[samuel_davis]: 16:21

at comment and she said i disagree they're dying out here this guy could end up dead

[matt_brown]: 16:27

yes oh

[samuel_davis]: 16:28

and there's different ways of doing

[matt_brown]: 16:30

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 16:30

that and i said what are they

[matt_brown]: 16:33

[samuel_davis]: 16:34

please share

[matt_brown]: 16:35

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 16:36

course i didn't get

[matt_brown]: 16:37

[samuel_davis]: 16:37

any feedback from that but

[matt_brown]: 16:40

[samuel_davis]: 16:42

my response to that was not one step

[matt_brown]: 16:46

h yeah

[samuel_davis]: 16:47

towards emotional wellness for anyone includes accepting unacceptable behavior not at all

[matt_brown]: 16:54

at all

[samuel_davis]: 16:55

that's not a step towards emotional wellness would you agree i m off here

[matt_brown]: 17:01

no no excuse me you're not off i mean here's the thing that i know about therapy and one of the things that i've worked on

[samuel_davis]: 17:08

[matt_brown]: 17:09

especially recently

[samuel_davis]: 17:10

yeah

[matt_brown]: 17:10

in therapy is boundaries

[samuel_davis]: 17:13

yeah

[matt_brown]: 17:13

really coming to understand what boundaries mean and that when you have healthy boundaries you control much less you try to control much less because the boundaries are in place you don't have to control in unhealthy

[samuel_davis]: 17:27

[matt_brown]: 17:28

ways stronger boundaries mean healthier relationships and less controlling behavior and so starting from that point of view here's what happened i mean it sounds to me like they gave him a choice

[samuel_davis]: 17:42

yeah

[matt_brown]: 17:43

however they presented this good bad and different they presented a choice to him he made his choice and the boundary was if you make this choice you can't live here he made that choice they did not put him on the street they gave him an alternative he didn't want he didn't want that alternative so he hopped on his bike and and he rode away now here's the thing that i know from being in his position at one point in my life when i took off and left my parents house because i didn't want to go to treatment either i was banking on the fact that my absence and my lack of communication would create fear in them that would cause them to make a decision that was different from the one that they already made i think a lot of young people and most of us are not even conscious of this when we do it but we try to create fear to evoke a response that we know will be to our advantage when people walk out of treatment early they don't walk out because they want to be homeless they walk out because even if it's on a subconscious level they know that hey if i can get mom and dad scared enough that i'm going to be on the street they're going to send somebody to get me they're going to buy me a plain ticket they're going to come pick me up now i intentionally makes choices to cause themselves to be uncomfortable most of the time

[samuel_davis]: 19:03

yeah

[matt_brown]: 19:03

i mean so some people will do that but you know borrowing any significant mental th issues i mean it doesn't sound like this guy was

[samuel_davis]: 19:09

[matt_brown]: 19:09

kitsoffranica doesn't sound like he was psychotic it doesn't sound like he had any kind of thought disorder it sounds to me like we're dealing i mean there may be some depression some anxiety something like that but nothing that's really gonna significantly compounder or compromise his ability to make a choice that's that's good or bad he made that choice completely driven on on his addiction and hoping that mom and dad would you now feel in that fear would would back pedal and it sounds like

[samuel_davis]: 19:35

and

[matt_brown]: 19:35

they

[samuel_davis]: 19:35

it's

[matt_brown]: 19:35

didn't

[samuel_davis]: 19:35

the same thing what it reminds me of

[matt_brown]: 19:37

[samuel_davis]: 19:38

is when you're a kid when you're like four or five

[matt_brown]: 19:41

[samuel_davis]: 19:42

and you say

[matt_brown]: 19:42

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 19:42

i'm running away i know i did it i packed a little handkerchief

[matt_brown]: 19:45

[samuel_davis]: 19:45

and a hobo pack on a tobacco well maybe i think a little sunday

[matt_brown]: 19:49

[samuel_davis]: 19:49

vest you know i just remember that

[matt_brown]: 19:51

member

[samuel_davis]: 19:52

and said i'm running

[matt_brown]: 19:53

said

[samuel_davis]: 19:53

away

[matt_brown]: 19:53

away

[samuel_davis]: 19:54

and she my mom said okay well you know

[matt_brown]: 19:57

[samuel_davis]: 19:57

if you gotten enough to eat before you left you know want to eat before you go and i though countless others that have done the same thing it's it's the same type of behavior right

[matt_brown]: 20:07

yeah yeah

[samuel_davis]: 20:08

there's so many comments that came through the ported overwhelming

[matt_brown]: 20:12

[samuel_davis]: 20:12

support of the fan that that's what the family did was the right thing because the family has to protect

[matt_brown]: 20:18

thanks

[samuel_davis]: 20:18

their home and protect their but they called it tough love um

[matt_brown]: 20:24

well and i think that when you talk about getting rid of that phrase i think that it's such a misunderstood phrase because in jeff and debora jay's book love first they really drill down on this they really talk a lot about this this notion of tough love and one of the points that they make is people emphasize the tough way too much and they don't emphasize the fact that it's love that started this process in the first place that healthy boundaries mean that we love somebody we want them in our lives we want them to be there but we also love ourselves enough to not do it unconditionally it's not saying i'm going to be in a relationship with you no matter what you do no matter how treat me no matter how you waste my money treat my property or treat the other members of this family your presence here is unconditional because we love you unconditionally that's not love yeah

[samuel_davis]: 21:17

it's toxic

[matt_brown]: 21:18

it is and so what we have to really understand is i love you and i want you in my life but i also love myself and i love this home and i love this family that i'm responsible for under this roof and your presence here does have conditions my love might be unconditional but my support is not and that's the one thing that i have to really help families understand is that unconditional love does not equal unconditional support

[samuel_davis]: 21:44

exactly

[matt_brown]: 21:44

m oh

[samuel_davis]: 21:49

stumbling

[matt_brown]: 21:49

yes

[samuel_davis]: 21:50

on some words here and some thoughts

[matt_brown]: 21:52

that's okay

[samuel_davis]: 21:55

and i shouldn't because this is one o one right here you know

[matt_brown]: 21:59

well but it's it's so important i think this comes down to like a lot of families that that you and i work with they're worried that they're going to ruin their relationship they're worried that they're going to push their loved one so far away that they're never going to come back how often do you hear in an intervention particularly with young adults where someone says you guys actually make me go to treatment you'll

[samuel_davis]: 22:21

[matt_brown]: 22:21

never hear from me again if i if i go and do this i'm never talking to you again how many times have you heard that

[samuel_davis]: 22:26

oh countless times countless

[matt_brown]: 22:29

yeah how many

[samuel_davis]: 22:29

and a hundred

[matt_brown]: 22:30

how many times

[samuel_davis]: 22:30

percent

[matt_brown]: 22:31

does it actually happen

[samuel_davis]: 22:32

none and countless i'm not saying it's never happened it hasn't happened with anyone that i've been in real that i've engaged with professionally or know of either professionally

[matt_brown]: 22:44

yeah m

[samuel_davis]: 22:45

or or not

[matt_brown]: 22:46

m oh

[samuel_davis]: 22:47

the relationship s always improve i mean prime example

[matt_brown]: 22:51

[samuel_davis]: 22:51

you know my family our relationship

[matt_brown]: 22:52

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 22:53

is stronger than it's ever been and i know that relationship with your family is certainly stronger than it was pre getting

[matt_brown]: 23:00

[samuel_davis]: 23:00

sober right and it didn't look very pretty on the front end did it mine didn't you know my father

[matt_brown]: 23:06

not

[samuel_davis]: 23:06

told

[matt_brown]: 23:06

at all

[samuel_davis]: 23:07

me said you can go wherever you want to go but you're not coming here you're not even welcome back in the state figure

[matt_brown]: 23:12

back

[samuel_davis]: 23:12

it out bud my mother who loved me

[matt_brown]: 23:16

[samuel_davis]: 23:16

just as much as any mother can love their child

[matt_brown]: 23:19

[samuel_davis]: 23:19

was willing to let me go to prison

[matt_brown]: 23:21

[samuel_davis]: 23:21

she was willing to

[matt_brown]: 23:22

yep

[samuel_davis]: 23:22

sit there without an emotion on her face steadfast

[matt_brown]: 23:26

excuse me

[samuel_davis]: 23:27

watch deputies take me away to prison

[matt_brown]: 23:29

yet

[samuel_davis]: 23:30

she was willing to do that because they

[matt_brown]: 23:32

[samuel_davis]: 23:33

had begun to take care of themselves and to get their life back

[matt_brown]: 23:37

oh yeah when you

[samuel_davis]: 23:41

now

[matt_brown]: 23:41

have

[samuel_davis]: 23:41

[matt_brown]: 23:41

[samuel_davis]: 23:42

ahead

[matt_brown]: 23:42

disease that tells you that you have to control everything around you no matter what whether that's co dependency whether that's addiction

[samuel_davis]: 23:52

[matt_brown]: 23:52

each of those different issues each of those different

[samuel_davis]: 23:55

yeah

[matt_brown]: 23:55

diseases tells you you have to find a way to control and this this is the quote im goin to read it's from the big red book of adult children coholix it says the level of choice we develop in a c a is proportional to the integrity of our boundaries the more we let go of control the stronger our boundaries become this is an a c paradox letting go creates stronger boundaries and so what i thinks happening when you when you ask a family to create a boundary they may not draw the core relation between the fact that that boundary is actually going to allow them to let

[samuel_davis]: 24:31

[matt_brown]: 24:31

go ome of the control they're trying to have and it's really futile it's the illusion of control at the end of the day they don't have control this idea that well i'm just going to let them stay here in my house it gives them the illusion of control i can see him i can see her i know they're okay i can see that they're eating i can see that they're bathing i can see you know the the their basic needs are being met and therefore i feel okay

[samuel_davis]: 24:57

it's

[matt_brown]: 24:57

and

[samuel_davis]: 24:57

about

[matt_brown]: 24:57

then

[samuel_davis]: 24:58

them

[matt_brown]: 24:58

it is it is it's all about dealing

[samuel_davis]: 25:00

yeah

[matt_brown]: 25:01

with the emotional unrest that comes when you when you let go of that control but when you create that boundary regardless of what the boundary is allows you relinquish some of that control that the reality is you never had in the first place

[samuel_davis]: 25:15

because before that they're trying to regulate their emotion they're using

[matt_brown]: 25:18

using

[samuel_davis]: 25:19

their loved one to regulate their emotions

[matt_brown]: 25:22

absolutely

[samuel_davis]: 25:23

just

[matt_brown]: 25:23

and

[samuel_davis]: 25:23

like i used crack o cane to regulate

[matt_brown]: 25:25

right

[samuel_davis]: 25:25

my emotions or attempt to

[matt_brown]: 25:26

[samuel_davis]: 25:26

regulate my emotions and method one and any other substance and just like you

[matt_brown]: 25:30

[samuel_davis]: 25:30

were doing that and just like any other addicted individual uses a substance the families are using their addicted want to regulate their emotions

[matt_brown]: 25:37

yep

[samuel_davis]: 25:37

they don't even

[matt_brown]: 25:37

and

[samuel_davis]: 25:37

realize it

[matt_brown]: 25:38

statistically speaking when you talk about somebody dying whether it's fentonell or harowin or any other kind of drug that you can overdose on the vast majority and i don't know what the specific numbers are maybe you do but the vast majority of overdose happen in the home where that person lives

[samuel_davis]: 25:54

yes

[matt_brown]: 25:54

it's not happening out on the street it's not happening in a crack house it's not happening i mean don't get me wrong there's shoot houses out there were people overdose and die all the time but the vast majority people who die of over doses die in their homes

[samuel_davis]: 26:08

yes

[matt_brown]: 26:08

and and to think that a family is going to prevent that from happening simply because they're under the roof statistically speaking that just doesn't add up

[samuel_davis]: 26:16

yeah there's no evidence that shows

[matt_brown]: 26:19

[samuel_davis]: 26:20

that that is the case that

[matt_brown]: 26:22

right

[samuel_davis]: 26:22

they are actually keeping them safe

[matt_brown]: 26:25

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 26:25

now this guy

[matt_brown]: 26:27

[samuel_davis]: 26:27

had been gone maybe i think twelve hours

[matt_brown]: 26:30

[samuel_davis]: 26:31

and the family was just

[matt_brown]: 26:33

[samuel_davis]: 26:33

panicing pannikin and that is unhealthy

[matt_brown]: 26:38

[samuel_davis]: 26:39

um m damn man i must have to be having an off day here buddy i'm telling you because this has been like i've been on this video for you know a week reading

[matt_brown]: 26:50

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 26:50

comments and saying god has not be good for a podcast be good for a pal as but

[matt_brown]: 26:53

well what are let me ask you this sam what are some of the alternatives that people are proposing other than what this family did is there is there any other solution that's being presented are they just criticizing the action that was taken

[samuel_davis]: 27:04

well like i said

[matt_brown]: 27:05

like i said

[samuel_davis]: 27:06

the overwhelming majority of the public

[matt_brown]: 27:11

[samuel_davis]: 27:11

that had commented on this

[matt_brown]: 27:13

[samuel_davis]: 27:14

was

[matt_brown]: 27:14

[samuel_davis]: 27:14

in full support but their

[matt_brown]: 27:16

[samuel_davis]: 27:16

idea around what the tough love looked

[matt_brown]: 27:19

[samuel_davis]: 27:19

like in the manner that

[matt_brown]: 27:21

and

[samuel_davis]: 27:21

it was presented to their addicted loved one a little off but the ones that were critical of it could not offer

[matt_brown]: 27:30

[samuel_davis]: 27:32

another

[matt_brown]: 27:32

[samuel_davis]: 27:32

solution because there really isn't

[matt_brown]: 27:35

[samuel_davis]: 27:35

another solution that holds any water there is not that

[matt_brown]: 27:41

[samuel_davis]: 27:42

that would be helpful to the family and their emotional well being because their family is in

[matt_brown]: 27:50

amy

[samuel_davis]: 27:50

it now for them to back up

[matt_brown]: 27:51

[samuel_davis]: 27:51

and allow him back in the home now i did

[matt_brown]: 27:53

[samuel_davis]: 27:54

present

[matt_brown]: 27:54

i did

[samuel_davis]: 27:54

to them

[matt_brown]: 27:54

present

[samuel_davis]: 27:54

because they did not use an intervention is to do a full blown formal intervention so as

[matt_brown]: 28:00

that's

[samuel_davis]: 28:00

thing

[matt_brown]: 28:01

the

[samuel_davis]: 28:01

has

[matt_brown]: 28:01

thing

[samuel_davis]: 28:01

gone on for days and days i suggest i suggested to the family listen because dad was not doing well i said you

[matt_brown]: 28:11

yes

[samuel_davis]: 28:11

guys may need to do a formal intervention just to bring him back enough let him into the home gather your

[matt_brown]: 28:19

the

[samuel_davis]: 28:19

troops meaning the rest of the family that was not involved in this initial you know confrontation bring the rest

[matt_brown]: 28:27

[samuel_davis]: 28:27

[matt_brown]: 28:27

rest

[samuel_davis]: 28:27

the family in that are concerned about him that have some emotional leverage with him that he listens to that he respects and also who's been impacted by his behaviors put some things on paper the correct way sit him down let the entire family share with him their love for him and their concern with him and their concern about his behaviors their concern about his addiction have them set some boundaries in a loving way worded the right way have him see the support of the rest of the family with

[matt_brown]: 29:07

wit

[samuel_davis]: 29:07

his mother and father

[matt_brown]: 29:08

the

[samuel_davis]: 29:09

that

[matt_brown]: 29:10

that's

[samuel_davis]: 29:10

would

[matt_brown]: 29:10

what

[samuel_davis]: 29:11

would be what i was that's

[matt_brown]: 29:12

that's

[samuel_davis]: 29:13

what i

[matt_brown]: 29:13

what

[samuel_davis]: 29:13

condemn that is what i suggested to the family at that point to bring him in again

[matt_brown]: 29:20

again

[samuel_davis]: 29:22

just overnight so you know where he is and then present the entire family to him the next morning and i believe they'd have success in getting him to

[matt_brown]: 29:30

yes

[samuel_davis]: 29:30

treatment they haven't pulled the trigger

[matt_brown]: 29:32

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 29:32

on that yet

[matt_brown]: 29:33

well but here's what happens you put that out there on social media saying hey this is what they've decided to you're going to get somebody coming back at you saying and criticizing you for saying oh you're juist bating this kid back into another intervention not fair you know you're bringing him back into the home under false pretense s just to set him up to have another intervention there's always going to be somebody criticizing the actions any time you put it out there even though you've done it anonymously and you obviously you've kept the confidentiality of this family and the client but when you put it out there there's always going to be detractors there's always going o be people that find a way to criticize what you're doing but it kind of goes back to i think it was m i want to say roosevelt you ever heard the part of his speech called the man in the arena

[samuel_davis]: 30:16

[matt_brown]: 30:18

i'm going to look that

[samuel_davis]: 30:19

[matt_brown]: 30:19

up real quick well you i'll edit this out if i need to but

[samuel_davis]: 30:26

and the beautiful thing about this

[matt_brown]: 30:27

i bet

[samuel_davis]: 30:28

type of podcast man

[matt_brown]: 30:29

[samuel_davis]: 30:29

is we can have pauses and long pauses and

[matt_brown]: 30:31

[samuel_davis]: 30:31

say ship like this i'm just not trying to put any more

[matt_brown]: 30:33

[samuel_davis]: 30:33

work on you for editing but

[matt_brown]: 30:35

[samuel_davis]: 30:35

[matt_brown]: 30:35

[samuel_davis]: 30:35

did

[matt_brown]: 30:36

[samuel_davis]: 30:36

not

[matt_brown]: 30:36

i want to yeah

[samuel_davis]: 30:38

i did not say that on social

[matt_brown]: 30:41

that

[samuel_davis]: 30:41

media that response of

[matt_brown]: 30:43

[samuel_davis]: 30:43

what they could do i

[matt_brown]: 30:43

[samuel_davis]: 30:44

said that to the family i suggested

[matt_brown]: 30:46

right

[samuel_davis]: 30:46

that to the family that that's what they do

[matt_brown]: 30:48

absolutely but when you put it out there i'll read this here in just a second but when you put it out there to the family like hey you know this is maybe another that we could take what i was saying is if you had put that out there on social media like hey this is another opportunity that we might have you're going to get people that come back and criticize you no matter what and it just reminded me of it was from a speech that teddy roosevelt gave

[samuel_davis]: 31:10

yeah

[matt_brown]: 31:11

and he was talking about basically his critics and people who criticise people without having had the experience and he says it's it's not the critic who counts not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better

[samuel_davis]: 31:29

[matt_brown]: 31:29

the credit belongs to the man who's actually in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly who airs who comes short again and again cause there is no effort without error and shortcoming but who does actually strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasm the great devotions who spends himself in a worthy cause at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least he feels fails while daring greatly so this so that his play shall never be with those cold and timid souls who will neither know victory nor defeat and so that's that's the quota and burned brown actually ended up writing a book called daring greatly that the title comes from that speech and it just really talks about the fact that you know there's plenty of out there they're going to stand on the sidelines and criticize so there's plenty of people you know has that therapist that commented on your on your post i wonder if she's ever done an intervention 'veeverwonder if she's ever actually worked with somebody who didn't want help most therapist don't and and you know most therapist they sit in in an officts and rightly so like i've got a wonderful therapist myself and i go into his office every week and we sit down and talk and i'm willing to be there and i'm willing to do some work but it's different from doing an intervention he's not coming to me saying hey how do how would you like some therapy today it's a whole different ball game especially

[samuel_davis]: 32:55

[matt_brown]: 32:56

if i didn't want it to begin with so there's always going to be the critics there's always going to be people out there who find reason to find fault with whatever course of action somebody takes now you add something like this where people's lives really could be on the line and and emotions are gonna run hot people are going to start to criticize all the more and i think their hearts are in the right place but i think they lack the experience to really give him the insight into what's really going on and i think that's where a lot of people come up short having an opinion you've said it on the on here before better than

[samuel_davis]: 33:28

[matt_brown]: 33:28

i ever could you said they're having an opinion of an experience they've never had and i like that i've used that a few times since i heard you say it

[samuel_davis]: 33:37

well i've seen well thank you man i appreciate that i cannot take

[matt_brown]: 33:40

take

[samuel_davis]: 33:40

credit for that i heard that somewhere myself i did not make that up i think mark houston said that

[matt_brown]: 33:45

well it's a very wise thought and i've used it a few times since i heard you say it and you know i think the people that are out there talking about tough love in a way that really is either inaccurate or doesn't apply the right way there they're having an experience of something that i mean listen i hope they never have to have the experience of trying to get a loved one into treatment i really

[samuel_davis]: 34:06

yeah

[matt_brown]: 34:06

[samuel_davis]: 34:07

the reality met is that we are engaged in a conflict of addiction and there're strategies that

[matt_brown]: 34:15

energy

[samuel_davis]: 34:15

you use and their strategies that you don't and this is an illness we're dealing

[matt_brown]: 34:20

[samuel_davis]: 34:20

with a very cunning baffling and powerful

[matt_brown]: 34:22

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 34:22

illness and sometimes no matter what you do

[matt_brown]: 34:25

[samuel_davis]: 34:26

you can do everything right

[matt_brown]: 34:28

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 34:29

you're going to lose him because it is an illness and people people are going

[matt_brown]: 34:33

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 34:33

to die

[matt_brown]: 34:33

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 34:34

that is the reality and just like cancer you can do everything

[matt_brown]: 34:38

[samuel_davis]: 34:39

that you're supposed to do you can get the cima you can change the diet ou can change the life style you can cross every t and dot every eye you can still die from it no matter what you do but that never stops the families from doing what they're supposed

[matt_brown]: 34:58

[samuel_davis]: 34:58

to do addiction

[matt_brown]: 35:01

addiction

[samuel_davis]: 35:01

is no different

[matt_brown]: 35:01

is no

[samuel_davis]: 35:02

you can do all the right

[matt_brown]: 35:03

all

[samuel_davis]: 35:03

things

[matt_brown]: 35:04

the right

[samuel_davis]: 35:04

and you

[matt_brown]: 35:04

thing

[samuel_davis]: 35:04

can still lose them but it should never stop you from doing what you're supposed to

[matt_brown]: 35:08

[samuel_davis]: 35:08

do setting boundaries is what you're supposed

[matt_brown]: 35:11

[samuel_davis]: 35:11

to do and there's a lot of people that are in belief that well well there were several that commented that they had lost their loved ones unfortunately we put our loved one out

[matt_brown]: 35:23

[samuel_davis]: 35:23

and and they died you know my uncle was put out

[matt_brown]: 35:27

i a

[samuel_davis]: 35:28

two weeks later he was dead or a month later he was dead

[matt_brown]: 35:31

[samuel_davis]: 35:32

they did not kill him they did not kill her they set boundaries and they did the right thing and the illness took

[matt_brown]: 35:41

[samuel_davis]: 35:41

them and

[matt_brown]: 35:42

well

[samuel_davis]: 35:42

with

[matt_brown]: 35:42

and i

[samuel_davis]: 35:42

this

[matt_brown]: 35:42

want to

[samuel_davis]: 35:43

kid

[matt_brown]: 35:43

put i want to put it

[samuel_davis]: 35:44

what

[matt_brown]: 35:44

in context too like we're not just putting people on the street we're not just telling families to put people on the street it's not like we're going in there saying hey you know what you're you're drug addicted and you're alcoholic and your family doesn't like that so you got to go that's not what's happening what we're doing is we're going in there and we're saying we'd really love to see you get treatmented we'd love to see you do something to help save your life and help get you happy again and help you find that the freedom that comes with sobriety but if you don't choose to do this today here's how these relationships might have to change and i give families very specific criteria there's only two reasons to change their

[samuel_davis]: 36:22

[matt_brown]: 36:22

relationship there's only two reasons where tough love even needs to come to bear first one am i enabling this to continue or get worse that's the hard question that i have to ask every family to really just sit and be honest with themselves about am i enabling this in any way inancially emotionally am is my silence a form of enabling is me not being willing to address the elephant in the room a form of enabling often oftentimes it is the other son to practice tough love am i being

[samuel_davis]: 36:54

[matt_brown]: 36:55

harmed yeah i being harmed financially physically or emotionally that's it those are the only criteria if if those two things are happening or both of the one one or both of those things are happening that's the time to set a boundary if it's not happening you don't just go in there and levy ultimatums just because that's what you have to do at an intervention that's never what i tell families to do so if there's going to be a change in the boundaries it's because either there's enabling or there's harm that's it

[samuel_davis]: 37:29

yeah and what does tough love

[matt_brown]: 37:31

this

[samuel_davis]: 37:31

sound like right it sounds like this with this family what an

[matt_brown]: 37:35

god

[samuel_davis]: 37:36

an appropriate tough love if we have

[matt_brown]: 37:38

[samuel_davis]: 37:38

to use that phrase which i hate but what does that

[matt_brown]: 37:42

what does

[samuel_davis]: 37:42

sounds

[matt_brown]: 37:42

that

[samuel_davis]: 37:43

[matt_brown]: 37:43

say

[samuel_davis]: 37:43

it sounds like

[matt_brown]: 37:44

[samuel_davis]: 37:46

i just got an echo did you get that echo

[matt_brown]: 37:49

i didn't

[samuel_davis]: 37:50

what are you gonna to edit that out sorry buddy what that

[matt_brown]: 37:53

of course

[samuel_davis]: 37:53

sounds

[matt_brown]: 37:53

no problem

[samuel_davis]: 37:54

like is

[matt_brown]: 37:56

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 37:56

to me and what

[matt_brown]: 37:57

[samuel_davis]: 37:57

i explained to my families are i wiohelola

[matt_brown]: 38:03

[samuel_davis]: 38:04

what this sounds like to my family is what tough love sounds like

[matt_brown]: 38:09

[samuel_davis]: 38:09

effectively and appropriately with when setting that boundary is buddy

[matt_brown]: 38:15

[samuel_davis]: 38:15

we love you and we want to see you have

[matt_brown]: 38:18

[samuel_davis]: 38:18

the best that this world has to

[matt_brown]: 38:20

[samuel_davis]: 38:20

offer but you are struggling and here's how

[matt_brown]: 38:24

[samuel_davis]: 38:24

old on the doors opening all right matt

[matt_brown]: 38:28

that's all right

[samuel_davis]: 38:29

hold on

[matt_brown]: 38:29

oh m

[samuel_davis]: 38:33

all right baby oh we love you and we have watched you struggle and we want to see you be the best that you're created to be we want you to have all of the gifts that this world is to give you that you deserve because you deserve the best but watching this is too painful for us and we have come to realize that we're actually not helping you but we're harming

[matt_brown]: 38:59

[samuel_davis]: 39:00

you we don't want to do that any more and

[matt_brown]: 39:02

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 39:02

we will not do that any more so we've offered you a place to go and if you don't

[matt_brown]: 39:06

[samuel_davis]: 39:06

want to go to that place we're certainly not going to force you it will pain us cause us great pain for

[matt_brown]: 39:12

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 39:13

you not to go

[matt_brown]: 39:15

yes

[samuel_davis]: 39:15

but if you need to

[matt_brown]: 39:16

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 39:17

to go out here and have an experience we're not going to stand in the way of that but we have to take some measures to protect our own selves we have to take some measures to improve our emotional health that's what we're doing here today so

[matt_brown]: 39:30

[samuel_davis]: 39:30

if you're choosing to go out and

[matt_brown]: 39:32

wow

[samuel_davis]: 39:33

have your experience and the experience

[matt_brown]: 39:34

[samuel_davis]: 39:34

that you need we're not going to get in the way of that now that will love you and it doesn't mean that our relationship is over it doesn't mean that i'm not going to text you at night and tell you that i love you it doesn't mean that i'm not going a text you in the morning and say i hope you're doing well just know that i love you and the help is here and then i love you

[matt_brown]: 39:52

[samuel_davis]: 39:52

very much that i miss that's not casting someone out that's not that's not walking away from a relationship changing the communication

[matt_brown]: 40:03

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 40:04

is changing what you're doing with your loved one

[matt_brown]: 40:06

right

[samuel_davis]: 40:06

and that doesn't sound like and when people hear tough love it's it's like get the hell out of here

[matt_brown]: 40:14

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 40:14

you're

[matt_brown]: 40:14

there's

[samuel_davis]: 40:14

done

[matt_brown]: 40:14

[samuel_davis]: 40:14

ere

[matt_brown]: 40:15

there's

[samuel_davis]: 40:15

go to

[matt_brown]: 40:15

[samuel_davis]: 40:15

treatment

[matt_brown]: 40:15

element

[samuel_davis]: 40:15

[matt_brown]: 40:15

[samuel_davis]: 40:15

else

[matt_brown]: 40:15

confrontation there's an element of anger to it and that doesn't have to be the way it is

[samuel_davis]: 40:19

never it never

[matt_brown]: 40:20

it never

[samuel_davis]: 40:20

has to

[matt_brown]: 40:21

has

[samuel_davis]: 40:21

be that

[matt_brown]: 40:21

to be

[samuel_davis]: 40:21

way never you never have to be unkind

[matt_brown]: 40:25

[samuel_davis]: 40:25

when dealing with your addicted loved one you can

[matt_brown]: 40:29

[samuel_davis]: 40:29

tell them and i hate it that you're choosing this it is tearing me

[matt_brown]: 40:34

very

[samuel_davis]: 40:34

up i am not sleeping

[matt_brown]: 40:36

i'm not

[samuel_davis]: 40:36

[matt_brown]: 40:36

sleeping

[samuel_davis]: 40:36

night knowing that you've made this decision

[matt_brown]: 40:39

[samuel_davis]: 40:39

and knowing that i have

[matt_brown]: 40:40

when

[samuel_davis]: 40:40

to allow you to make this decision and i love you buddy the treatments here i'll come get you

[matt_brown]: 40:48

outcome

[samuel_davis]: 40:48

whenever you're ready i'll drop whatever i'm doing

[matt_brown]: 40:50

[samuel_davis]: 40:51

and i'll come get you and take you the treatment when you're ready just know that you're not being in our circle right now is very painful but we're doing this because we have to take some health for ourselves

[matt_brown]: 41:03

well and to the point of conflict a confrontation if people set boundaries out of anger they're generally not going to hold because our family is usually a people that were the angriest at

[samuel_davis]: 41:19

[matt_brown]: 41:19

the quickest but they're also the people that were going to

[samuel_davis]: 41:21

yeah

[matt_brown]: 41:21

forgive the quickest and so if you're my brother and i set a boundary with you because i'm angry at you as soon as i'm done being angry with you what happens to that boundary

[samuel_davis]: 41:32

was non

[matt_brown]: 41:33

it's

[samuel_davis]: 41:33

existent

[matt_brown]: 41:33

gone

[samuel_davis]: 41:33

to start

[matt_brown]: 41:33

it's gone

[samuel_davis]: 41:34

with

[matt_brown]: 41:35

and and as dad's now if we if we give our kids a consequence because we're angry at them that's it you know no x box for two weeks well the next day when we're not so upset and maybe we think we over reacted and my son's coming to me and he's being pretty an adorable and and you know just sweet and doing everything that i would have done at his age to try to get the x box back well giving him that x box back all of a sudden doesn't seem like such a bad idea because maybe i overacted in the first place maybe that anger that i felt in the moment caused me to say or do something that i shouldn't have done so there goes the boundary and so we never want to set boundaries from a position of anger or conflict that's never the right way to do it

[samuel_davis]: 42:21

yeah yeah well said well said

[matt_brown]: 42:25

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 42:25

how long do you want to go with this bud

[matt_brown]: 42:27

well i think we're probably at a place where we can wrap it up we i think we've said everything that we've needed to say and it's just time to kind of put a bow on it and get it done i don't think this needs to be a real long one i think that you know if we stay on here too much longer it's going to get preachy

[samuel_davis]: 42:41

yeah yeah how do you think we did you think we did all right and i feel

[matt_brown]: 42:45

[samuel_davis]: 42:45

like a little after that i don't do podcasts as well

[matt_brown]: 42:47

[samuel_davis]: 42:47

as i do a video you know but i

[matt_brown]: 42:49

[samuel_davis]: 42:49

don't

[matt_brown]: 42:49

[samuel_davis]: 42:49

know

[matt_brown]: 42:49

no i

[samuel_davis]: 42:50

why

[matt_brown]: 42:50

think this

[samuel_davis]: 42:50

i get

[matt_brown]: 42:50

was good

[samuel_davis]: 42:50

like that

[matt_brown]: 42:52

i think this

[samuel_davis]: 42:52

[matt_brown]: 42:52

is just fine let's just find a way to kind of wrap it up and and we'll close it out and then i'll get to editing um so sam you know you and i have talked here today i think that at least i hope we've we've helped clarify what it really means to set boundaries with people in healthy ways what it really means what the word tough love should mean it's not about just coming in and being angry and being tough because unless i'm tough they're not going to get the message the message is the love that's that's really where i try to focus the families that i work with is let's go it's on the fact that you love them and that we're even sitting here in the same room together out of love i'm sitting here because i have love for this person and i don't want them to go through what i went through as the intervention ist put me in the situation where i had to experience some of the same things that they're going through i may not know them but i care about them i care about what happens to them going forward and if i can abbreviate their suffering at all i can abbreviate the family suffering at all through setting and practicing healthy boundaries everybody wins

[samuel_davis]: 44:04

yeah you know a lot of people that look at us as interventionists and i've noticed that on

[matt_brown]: 44:09

[samuel_davis]: 44:09

some of the comments in some of the social media i read

[matt_brown]: 44:14

[samuel_davis]: 44:15

there's like they think that we enjoy these scenarios oh yeah we're going to show them we're gonna put them on the street that show and that is the last thing i want to

[matt_brown]: 44:26

[samuel_davis]: 44:26

happen

[matt_brown]: 44:27

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 44:27

i hate it i hate it for them i hate it for the family and if there

[matt_brown]: 44:32

there

[samuel_davis]: 44:32

was

[matt_brown]: 44:32

was

[samuel_davis]: 44:33

another

[matt_brown]: 44:33

enough

[samuel_davis]: 44:33

way absolutely absolutely

[matt_brown]: 44:36

absolutely

[samuel_davis]: 44:37

would advise it you know it's the last thing that i want to see a family

[matt_brown]: 44:42

[samuel_davis]: 44:42

go through and to suffer with this and those sleepless

[matt_brown]: 44:45

[samuel_davis]: 44:45

nights and their experience on the out there in the world so if there was another way i would do it

[matt_brown]: 44:53

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 44:53

there's there's tom's that boundaries are boundaries

[matt_brown]: 44:58

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 44:58

and they have to look like that

[matt_brown]: 45:02

they do and i never give family instructions this is what you have to say this is how you have to say it i give them opportunities to kind of explore what's going on with relationship you know getting back to the two criteria are you enabling or are you being harmed if that's if that's happening think about what needs to happen but but i also say to your point earlier don't put anything on paper that's not realistic that you can't follow through on because like you said once the boundaries there you can't move it without losing some integrity and

[samuel_davis]: 45:40

[matt_brown]: 45:40

and whatever happens during the intervention have to have integrity what what gets said has to mean something and it's always an there's always an opportunity to create stronger boundaries if the first ones don't work but you can't create weaker boundaries because you can't hold strong ones

[samuel_davis]: 46:01

yeah

[matt_brown]: 46:01

[samuel_davis]: 46:01

yeah that's shooting yourself in the foot and you taught me

[matt_brown]: 46:04

[samuel_davis]: 46:04

this mad early on when you were mentoring me

[matt_brown]: 46:07

[samuel_davis]: 46:08

is exactly what you said don't put anything on paper you're not willing to follow through with

[matt_brown]: 46:12

[samuel_davis]: 46:13

but i can suggest to you and let you know

[matt_brown]: 46:15

[samuel_davis]: 46:15

that the stronger the boundaries are the more likely they're willing to go to treatment

[matt_brown]: 46:18

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 46:18

that day

[matt_brown]: 46:20

yeah

[samuel_davis]: 46:21

now to

[matt_brown]: 46:23

yeah thank

[samuel_davis]: 46:24

matt

[matt_brown]: 46:24

you everybody

[samuel_davis]: 46:24

i'm glad

[matt_brown]: 46:25

for being here with us through the end yeah i'm glad we're here too sam

[samuel_davis]: 46:29

yeah

[matt_brown]: 46:29

thank you for being here thanks everybody for listening through the end of the podcast if you're so inclined we'd love for you to leave a review we'd love for you even rating it certainly helps us get seen by more people so we'd appreciate you if you take the time to do that here on whatever platform you're you're hearing us on but thank you again and we'll see you guys again next week

[samuel_davis]: 46:47

all take it easy

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